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2010 Starboard Quad
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SuperNuker



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No offense Johnl, but I have done my research and I'm just trying to help out by suggesting to stay with a single fin for the gorge. Smile
It's faster, they turn just as well, no ocean waves in the gorge last I heard, single fins have less drag, drag will make your arms tired faster, you slow down faster and you get on a plane slower among other things.
I realize they are on sale and it sounds like a fair deal to me for what it is. But for the Gorge... stay single and keep it simple if you want the best ride.

Or with all your research, tell me what it is about the multi fins that you expect to gain? I really am curious.

That said, it all works and you'll have fun on just about anything if you're not that picky. I am picky though and I spend a lot of $$ to make sure I have the best boards on the planet. Saving a few hundred to get something that I know isn't the best....not for me anyway. I put a high value on fun and I do notice I have more fun on boards that really work well.

I also realize some people will not notice the extra drag and will not notice the finer points of any board if they don't push the limits of what that board can do. So if it feels good to you, you'll like it. What the heck, you'll have a lot of fins to talk about. But if you ask the people that actually shape the boards, almost all will say a single is better for the gorge.

Just my two cents after 33 years of "research".
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SuperNuker



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one last thought. I bet there are a lot of folks at the Hatchery that use a lot of fins and I know there are some guys that are really good that use them. I just wonder how much the really good guys pay for them? I don't see a lot of "custom" ordered quads for the gorge. Lots of production boards but who's spending real money for them?
Find a good sale and eh, you'll get used to the board and be happy it only cost you so much.. but for some that's not good enough. Wink
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1170
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your entire premise is based on that everybody is the same. They aren't. If we were all the same there would be one model for everybody. Some people like different things. Personally when I'm on 3.2 or 3.7 wind for my 185 pound body I like to go a little slower. I enjoy a little more drag it gives me more time to smell the roses (or enjoy the swell). But I have no idea why you think my arms will get more tired. That one is beyond me. Have you tried using harness lines? Very Happy Some people under similar conditions may like going as fast as they can, but EVERYBODY isn't the same. Hence different boards.

For slightly less winds, I really enjoy my Realwind Fish. It took me 20+ years to finally give in and try a tri fin and I really enjoy it. When the winds are too light for that, you will find me on a single fin (tried the twin fin and really didn't like it).

So I'm glad you are particular and enjoy spending lots of money to satisfy it, but since I'm retired and have a lot less income, I would rather find a board that I enjoy for the best price.

However I am surprised after your "33 years of experience" that you believe that everybody is the same...... Rolling Eyes
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SuperNuker



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure where I mentioned any about all being the same... Rolling Eyes
Want more drag, throw an anchor out and then try sailing with a harness and tell me how it goes. Do you stay hooked in when you jibe?
Really, take no offense from me as it's not intended that way at all. I just really can't think of a good reason to add more drag to your kit.

Try dragging something though and see how your arms hold up after a while.

Rolling Eyes
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14178

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgoudie1 wrote:
I have a buddy here in SLC with an 8'2" Bonzer that might have 5 days total on it. I'm thinking I'll offer him a couple hundred to sell it to me. Might be worth having just for the ride experience. Plus it has killer
polyester deep gloss graphics.

That 5-day usage rate is by choice. He's passed up scores to hundreds of good days for that board in Utah alone, as it's great for 5.7 to 3.7 conditions. Its primary advantages, however, come to very aggressive intermediate sailors whose goals exceed their capabilities in rough terrain. On smoother water, or for nonaggro sailors, or for cruising swell depowered, or for rigging for efficiency (the best Bonzers are only about 65 liters), there's no point in them. People with heavy back feet, whether by accident or by preference, will love their phenomenal lateral traction when pushing them very hard sideways in harsh terrain. I love setting them down fully powered yet pointed where *I* want to go next, rather than having to align the board with my flight path to prevent spinout.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14178

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperNuker wrote:
I am picky though and I spend a lot of $$ to make sure I have the best boards on the planet.

I smile every windy day as I rig what I consider to be the best boards on the planet for my style, objectives, and conditions ... and remember yet again that they cost me from $10 to $400, usually $100 to $200.

All but a couple are single fin; the last resort boards for when one fin doesn't cut it have 5 fins.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1170
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperNuker wrote:
Not sure where I mentioned any about all being the same... Rolling Eyes
Want more drag, throw an anchor out and then try sailing with a harness and tell me how it goes. Do you stay hooked in when you jibe?
Really, take no offense from me as it's not intended that way at all. I just really can't think of a good reason to add more drag to your kit.

Try dragging something though and see how your arms hold up after a while.

Rolling Eyes


No offense taken, just finding it amusing. When the wind is blowing 30+ I really don't feel the need to go "as fast as I can" and prefer a slower controlled ride. Kind of like 4WD (an example a friend of mine used). Gives me a lot of control. And since I have actually sailed on 4 fins, 3 fins, and 1 fin, and haven't felt any additional drain on me, my arms, or my body, I don't see the point. Drag means the board goes slower, it doesn't mean you work harder to stay on it.

And when it comes to jibing, I don't see an energy difference between jibing a 1 fin, 3 fin, or a 4 fin board. Why? Because I am using them under DIFFERENT conditions.

Now if you were trying to convince me that 4 fins in 15 mph winds cause too much drag, I might even agree with you since at those wind speeds every little bit of drag hurts. BUT when it's blowing 30+ and getting on a plane is just a matter of putting up the sail and holding on I really don't care that the board is slower. In fact, that is what I am looking for. It sounds that this is not what you are looking for.
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SuperNuker



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not really talking about going fast either, it's just sailing with less drag which is easier on the arms, even with a harness.
But it's more than that. Drag also gives you a feeling of tripping over the front a bit when you let off on the sail. If I want to slow down I'll just sheet out a bit, I won't add more drag to the board to do that.

If you have a good board with a good rocker and outline etc, you don't need all the fins. The quads etc were not designed for the gorge. Sure they'll work and so will sailing on a door. But I do like to optimize my gear for gorge style conditions when I'm there and for me, it's the single fin that really does do it all.

There are lots of cheap boards out there and they'll make the majority of the people perfectly happy. But if you want to know what works the best for all around bump and jump style sailing (and any other sailing in my opinion), it's a good single fin. I vote for getting the best board that you can afford if you like to do this sport a lot.
Isobars post sounds about right to me as well, really it does. You can surely get a fine board for $100 or so that will work for most people. But if you really want to push the limits and compete with the best (I realize that not everyone cares about this), you're going to need the best board you can get for where you're sailing.

And for some others, when it blows 30knots, who really cares as long as you're out there and having fun.

ps just a tip for johnl, a friendly tip, you will ride the swells longer with less drag. Not sure how you think more drag is going to help that. and as far as the DIFFERENT conditions you speak of, aren't we talking about bump and jump? And a jibe is a jibe is a jibe, it doesn't matter where you are at, it's the same move. You still unhook and turn the board. Try that move dragging a 6 ft piece of rope off your back strap. Yes, it's exaggerated but try it and let me know what you feel after a while. Also let me know how many time you were tossed over the front. I still can't figure out how more fins will help anything in bump and jump. When people say they want to slow down when it's 30, I hear you and so do I at times, but I'll just sheet out. There are so many other ways to slow down, that's just the one I use.
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noshuzbluz



Joined: 18 May 2000
Posts: 774

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a little snippet taken from the Open Ocean/Board Theory section.

"Everybody knows that side fins create drag. BUT, power overcomes drag, and in high-wind sailing there is lots of power. You can only go as fast as the speed you can comfortably control. Sailing in strong wind, and rough and bumpy conditions isn't about being efficient. It's about how much power you can hang on to and with more control, the more power you can apply. In high-wind sailing you have design and you have ability."

_________________
The Time a Person Spends Windsurfing is not Deducted from their Lifespan...
http://www.openocean.com
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14178

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole idea of changing sail sizes is to select the amount of power we want. I want to sail the same way and at the same speed whether on a 6.2 or a 3.2 -- as fast and slashy as I can without crashing TOO often -- so I rig to overpower whatever drag exists. More fins, slots, wave boards, wave fins, sinkier boards, narrower tails, more vee, bigger lunch, more turns, sharper turns, slides ... all demand more power, and the load on the harness lines (ideally, my arms are just for jibing, not sailing) = net sail power minus hydrodynamic drag. (The front leg relieves the harness of some of the motive force in certain conditions such as broad reaches.)

If I've chosen the right sail ... or even more important if I rigged too big -- I need a suitable board. When I'm maxed out on a little sail, the river is rough enough that board selection gets crucial for handling, control, ride, maneuvering, trust, and safety if I want to keep going as fast as possible (I do). If I don't get scared $#!+less a couple of times per run, that's my cue to rest, eat, rig bigger, drop the hammer harder, and/or grab a board better suited to the conditions and my objectives. That really narrows the field, and my board of last resort when everything else is completely outta control, bouncing out in tight jibes, and/or beating the crap out of me but I still want to go as fast and slash as tight as possible is a 5-finned 65-liter (7'6" to 8'0") original GA Bonzer made in California like Craig's buddy's board. The damned things tolerate so damn much accidental and deliberate side forces and jibe so effortlessly in such rough water that any extra drag from their tiny Bonzer fins is inconsequential, buried in sheer laughter at what the board can do like no other board I've ever sailed as an intermediate-to-advanced but aggressive sailor. (Again, experts don't need them and unconfident sailors won't benefit, but they make aggressive intermediates and many more advanced sailors look vastly improved overnight if they push their envelope hard.)

The fact that they're cheaper than dirt is just a bonus.

And that 8-2 Craig's friend has may even slide down the swell luffed better than the smaller Bonzers, at a weight penalty he won't even notice.
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