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Early planing difference between 11.9 Race and 10.0 FreeRide
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thorofareken



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Early planing difference between 11.9 Race and 10.0 FreeRide Reply with quote

I wanted more planing TOW so I got myself a 155 Futura (85 wide) and an Aerotech Rapid Fire 10.0 (2007). Works great and last weekend in marginal conditions I was the first to plane every time (and often the only one planing) even though I weigh 200 pounds...so it definitely works.

Of course it has me thinking, can I get even more if I go bigger. I can get a Aerotech VMG 11.9 (2009) and a Chinook Alloy Pro 1 225-287 boom to go with it for a reasonable but not inexpensive amount.

Am I really going to plane in even lighter winds with this type of sail compared to my current 10.0 setup? I'd be going up in sail size, but sail weight is around 4 pounds heavier, plus boom weight is probably at least another 2 pounds. I could use the same mast so no weight change there.

I keep reading that race sails do not necessarily plane as early as freeride sails. Is that because of the increase in weight?

Just going by James' calculator, I should be able to plane 2 knots earlier. Adding in the additional 6 pounds of equipment increases planing threshold by less than 0.5 knots....so in theory I should plane about 1.5 knots earlier. Doesn't sound like that much, but if I am there on a marginal day, it could make a difference. Maybe.


Last edited by thorofareken on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13291

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wind on sails generates "lift" (power in a forward direction due largely to shape, especially foil) and "drag" (simple wind resistance, like a tree). The sailmaker designs a sail with the lift vs drag balance appropriate to the sail's intended purpose. Maximum lift (planing power, in your application) comes at the expense of extra drag, which ultimately limits top speed -- vital to a racer but not to your challenge. It's very much like the power curve of a musclecar high-cubic-inch V8 compared to a high-revving sports or Indy car: The former's going to plane earlier (i.e., win the 10-yard dash), but the latter will be first by a mile around the whole track.

You're in the 10-yard dash, and will also beat that race sail to the finish line (and have more fun) if you're planing and he's not.

Mike \m/
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 1934

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Race sails can plane as early as free-ride sails if you want to be a really active sailor, meaning you are willing and able to do a lot of pumping. If you are a passive planer, meaning you let the wind pull you onto a plane, than the freeride sail will plane much earlier. Iso's explained the technical reasons for this.

Coachg
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13291

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which will plane earlier ... a pumped race sail or a pumped free-ride of the same size?
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thorofareken



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Which will plane earlier ... a pumped race sail or a pumped free-ride of the same size?


Also, are 12 meter race sails only tuned for top end? Given the need for such a size...light winds and/or heavy sailor, wouldn't low end be somewhat important? Or is the assumption that there will be enough wind for planing and only top end speed matters?

Anyone have experience with both the VMG and the RapidFires?
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 2293

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quite often the only difference in planing may be in the lulls and/or way off the wind when one opts for a larger sail. steve g. and i used to race around a course trying to test newer models vs older. most often, i would be the first to the upwind mark typically with the smaller sail because of my pumping technique. i'd wait for him then from the top of the course and down, steve would then beat me. if i had ever not waited, i don't know who'd have gotten through the finish first. wasn't terribly important, since it was more of a qualitative testing than quantitative.

i've sailed both. the RF is way easier in the corners. way easier to get some feed back from the sail for clues as to when to try to pump. takes weeks of training to enjoy the double luff sails. whether one likes one or the other depends on how much TOW one gets. more TOW, day in day out, the more one may like the VMG? with my pumping and experienced cornering, i'd rather go RF.

maybe spend more money on better fins?

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5457

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me introduce a different option, the fin. While the fin is often overlooked as a source for early planing, it can have a huge impact, and it's a far less costly option. One has to remember that the sail and the fin balance and work together to maximize performance. Some folks can say that big fins aren't as fast, and they're right if we are talking about top speed in windy conditions. Yet, in borderline winds, a big fin is king. Not only will a big fin get you planing quicker and improve pumping performance, it will improve your windward ability.
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thorofareken



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate the input and I agree fin is important and I agree that race sails bring a more technical side to things, but at some point a larger sail is going to make a difference. Otherwise, I should just use my 8.0 Retro and call it a day to be happy planing in 15 knots. I could put a 70 cm fin on with the 8.0 Retro, but I don't think that I will be planing in 12 knots at 200 pounds weight like I can with the 10.0.

If they made a 12.0 RapidFire, I think that I would have bought it already. Had I not read that race sails often don't plane as early as FreeRide sails, I would have already bought the 11.9 VMG. I just wanted to make sure that I was probably going to see a difference between my current setup and the 11.9 VMG. No sense in spending the money on a sail that is going to be more difficult to deal with if I will still only be around 12knots and not closer to 10knots planing threshold.

It all makes a difference of course, a wider board, a larger sail, a better fin, lose 30 pounds and I might be planing around 8-9 knots.

Already the 10.0 has gotten me several days on the water that were a lot of fun that I would have not even rigged my 8.0. Now, there is a 11.0 Rapid Fire, but I'm not sure 1 meter is enough of a difference to spend the money?

Of course it is diminishing returns since the power from the wind decreases rapidly with drop in wind speeds below 12 knots and maybe I am already at the happy optimum return for my money at this point.

I also have some wider boards to use. I have a 2002 or so RRD Beast...260 long, 93 wide and really light....and really fragile. I have a new 2011 Starbord Formula HWR that I got for a steal, but I haven't sailed it yet. I damaged the beast from a catapult and I am hesitant to get back on either of these boards until my skills improve and the catapults all but disappear.

With either of those boards and their 70mm fins, I probably will gain another knot or so of earlier planing and maybe at my current weight and the current sail/board technology that is about all I can expect from light wind sailing without spending double to get another knot. I am definitely planing in 12 knots now...or what appears to be 12 knots. I am basing the wind speed on conditions (no white caps....flag extended...etc) and what the closest meter says, but it is difficult to be accurate. I don't want to get hung up on the number itself, but I know that I am planing in lighter condtions than ever before.


Last edited by thorofareken on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5457

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What size and type fin are you currently using?
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thorofareken



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
What size and type fin are you currently using?


My Futura 155 has the stock Drake 52 "race" fin.

I do have a 62 cm and a 70cm curtis race fin from my other boards.


Last edited by thorofareken on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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