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Obama vs. the Tea Party--who can lead?
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2607

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You misunderstood my reference to Ned Nedelander........he was an actor trying to look tough. We have now been put in a situation where there are no attractive options. 100,000 dead, some maybe by chemical weapons, red lines trampled on.........if we do nothing, we look like weak hypocrites.......if we disable Assad's power we create another vacuum for Al Qaeda/ Iran and probably increase the influence of Russia in Iran and the region generally. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't.........a foreign policy triumph.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3512
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with your assessment, but sadly thats been the case , regardless of president/policy...since I've been alive.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2607

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no upside here. We and/or the Brits/ French, will lob a few missiles in, trying to hit something of military significance...........then what? The killing with rifles and mortars continues? As long as it's not chemicals we can fly the mission accomplished banner? We should never have allowed ourselves to be cornered like this.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5125

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew, a spirited game of blame everything on Obama! The typical comments, all that is missing is insight. The scold scolds, Bard manages to blame everything on Obama:

Quote:
Obama has de-stabilized the middle east.


I guess that Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and the occasional military blunderers are all glad to get a dispensation. Maybe we can get the Catholics on the forum to lobby Paul Weyrich so they can also get plenary indulgences?

And to be sure, the hierarchical say we must be firmer, that

Quote:
they still don't like us and, more importantly, they don't fear us, so leaders of those countries are emboldened to constantly push the limits of behavior.


in the process dropping an obscure silent film reference on us. The days conservatives yearn for?

It seems to me that everyone has forgotten the deep religious divide in the Middle East, not to mention the role of Israel in walking away from the agreed points in previous negotiations, the miserable impacts of trying to project American force in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the inability to tell the good guys from the bad guys in Libya. I guess we watch too much television football, with uniforms and names so we can tell the team we root for from the team we root against.

So those who favor force now ignore the fact that we were bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq, and associated with tarnished puppet regimes noted more for their corruption than their commitment to democracy or an inclusive society. Their argument is, in essence, force would be effective in Syria if we had just used it sooner, and all problems stem from a "softer" approach. This ignores that part of intelligence that we have seen, namely that the rebels in Syria are dominated by jihadists and religious extremists. It ignores the long history of wars in the Middle East on religious fault lines—I guess they have trouble blaming the last Iran-Iraq war on Obama.

I will give props to Bard for consistency—he has been consistently opposed to intervention in the Middle East. Of course the elephant in the room is oil security. Our individual assumptions about the role of the United States in the world, projecting force and protecting the oil for our economy, have a lot to do with where we come out on this one.

There are no good options from here. But unlike the Obama haters, that is the unfortunate fact of life in the Middle East over the last five decades, not the result of Obama’s policies. Like during the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the United States might well be drawn into the use of force to alleviate suffering, but without much hope for creating a lasting peace
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3512
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting perspective from a respected source:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2013/08/26-syria-political-solution-ohanlon


Last edited by boggsman1 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3329

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gybe has provided us with the opinion of of most people in the Mideast about Obama.
He is fresh from his triumph of providing us with the opinion of Germans.

I remember when he first began posting he told us that the world now hated Obama. That was based on an obscure editorial written by an Australian, or maybe just a vision he had.

Post that "fact " again if you want. It kinda feels good if the whole world finally joins you in hating someone doesn't it? Even if it is a delusion?
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4048

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to ask yourselves, why would Assad use a limited chemical attack on women and children, WHEN BY ALL ACCOUNTS HE'S AREADY KICKING THE SHIT OUT OF THE REBELS? And on the same day that the UN inspectors show up.

This whole thing stinks.

And Mac, listen to the radio show, if you think I only blame Obama. You could learn a lot in 30 minutes.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3512
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
You have to ask yourselves, why would Assad use a limited chemical attack on women and children, WHEN BY ALL ACCOUNTS HE'S AREADY KICKING THE SHIT OUT OF THE REBELS? And on the same day that the UN inspectors show up.

This whole thing stinks.

And Mac, listen to the radio show, if you think I only blame Obama. You could learn a lot in 30 minutes.

Are you suggesting W's BFF, Putin, is suckering us into a war with one of Russia's good buddies to destabilize the enemy?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5762

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"We should never have allowed ourselves to be cornered like this."


The obvious question would be, what you have done to pull out the best outcome? In my view, the idea of blaming the current state of things on President Obama lacks any real merit, but we all know that's just the expected Republican cop-out. They would dance out against anything that Obama did. He would be damned regardless of whatever is done.

As I see it, we are left carrying the baggage that the Reagan years left us. The idea of American Exceptionalism and the illusion that America is the only superpower in the world is at the heart of things. Lots of hubris in all that. I don't understand how we can divine the right outcome and find agreement in the world, no matter how quick you are to act. Frankly, it's an impossibility.

I think that most thoughtful folks understand that the root of problems in the Middle East is religious and ethnic strife. There is no winning against such primitive forces that constantly volley back and forth stemming any meaningful progress. I'm with Bard siding against entering a civil war in Syria, and I must add that I think that mac highlighted our dilemma very well.

But again mrgybe, what would you have done to ensure a favorable outcome in such a difficult situation? Dancing around things targeting President Obama just doesn't float. I think we need a more serious view of things.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4048

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
stevenbard wrote:
You have to ask yourselves, why would Assad use a limited chemical attack on women and children, WHEN BY ALL ACCOUNTS HE'S AREADY KICKING THE SHIT OUT OF THE REBELS? And on the same day that the UN inspectors show up.

This whole thing stinks.

And Mac, listen to the radio show, if you think I only blame Obama. You could learn a lot in 30 minutes.

Are you suggesting W's BFF, Putin, is suckering us into a war with one of Russia's good buddies to destabilize the enemy?


Well, that is one possibility. It could also be the rebels who desperately need western intervention. Maybe Iran who wants to destabilize the situation. Or, any number of other saboteurs. We just don't know.

Assad has had a decade to watch what happens to other dictators in the middle east. He would not be stupid enough to do this when he is winning easily by all accounts. CNN and Fox are both beating the war drums.
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