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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3114
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

willy

I don't know how much effort you made to resolve this in person at Windance, I would have wanted to speak to the manager (person in charge) and try to reach an amicable compromise.

this board is on the used/consignment pages, its listed a 1996 , think that's wrong as I have its larger 104L brother, its a 1999.

http://www.windance.com/85-L-Mistral-Score-CGT7890S000/

I would ask you to call Windance and speak with Dave Nunn the owner, and explain (not argue) your experience.

Your right to post is being respected// upheld, but as you can read, lots of happy campers at the store and internet side .

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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1231

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Wow, this thread sends a telling message about the stuff we buy. After buying a board and having it for just a few years, it's ultimately worth almost nothing.


I think this thread tells more about unrealistic expectations. The gear is fine. It's supply and demand (for toys).

Beginner boards and modern lighter wind boards hold their value, at least in my neck of the woods. High performance mid-to-high wind gear loses resale value quickly, of course, as people in the market for the highest performance turn their boards over frequently. Lots of supply, not so much demand for "really hot three years ago."

If someone is buying a board with concerns about the value it will hold, they are in the wrong sport. I make a point of assuming I'll never get a dime for any WS gear I buy. Which makes selling it cheap at swaps a stressless experience.

If its about money, buy used. You'll still complain, but you can also think about the money you saved up front. I don't want to think about either.

I remember reading up on windsurfing before I took it up. One of the quotes I loved and which I've found to be true was this:

The best day in a boat owner's life is when he sells his boat.
The best day in a windsurfer's life is when he buys a new board.

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slinky



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 433
Location: Old Saybrook Ct.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Willy,

I find it very odd that they, Windance refuses your board because it's too old, a 2004. 9 years. There is no mention of this policy on their website.

I just checked their used gear, and they have two F2 Xantos' for sale. I would guess based on the shape, that they date from '96- 2000.

Anyhow glad you managed to sell your old board. I'd be ticked too!
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1195
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Wow, this thread sends a telling message about the stuff we buy. After buying a board and having it for just a few years, it's ultimately worth almost nothing. I guess if the board is well used, it's no big deal, but it's a bit sad that the value of a good older board with a few miles on it literally vaporizes. Buy a dud board that nobody wants, and you can't give it away after a year or two. When you think about it, it's a chilling picture.


I'm not sure I agree with that. Stuff sells all the time. But for a shop to invest it's money and time is a different story. I remember when 2nd winds sold used boards. They also had a policy on quality and age but I remember looking at some pretty beat up boards they had in their store for a high price. At least Windance is particular which is good for the buyer (which they ship all over the US) and prices stuff to sell.

But back to values, people forget it is a buyers not a sellers market in windsurfing. With overstock available and people moving, changing sports, having a family, etc there seems to be some deals out there. At least that is the situation here in the Gorge. Can't really speak to other places. I'm always amazed at some of the prices people have listed on used equipment at the swap meets. And see them time and time again with the same stuff.

It's kind of like motorcycles. The general idea is that it is worth 1/2 of what you paid for it (except Harleys) when you drive it off the floor. Why would you think windsurfing gear would fair better?
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1333
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There might be no mention on the website, but that is their (spoken)
policy. It can get more flexible, when they are hurting for used boards.

There are some very old boards in there now. Probably ended up there
due to a certain "flexibility". They take in what they think will sell. If
it's a low demand shape, or model, or they have a lot of boards in that
size, they probably won''t take it. Saves them
wasted space that could be used for profit, and saves you time waiting for
your board to sell when it's unlikely to do so. They also used to have
a policy of reducing the price by some percentage as the board ages,
and eventually the board will become so cheap that it will either sell
of have zero value. I have sold (and bought) several boards there
but I can't get them to take my pristine 74 ltr Randy French board,
even though they have one sitting in used inventory (that isn't nearly
as clean). I don't fault them for this. They take what they think will move.

-Craig

p.s. I'd sell my French for $200, it's an old shape, but it is without
blemish, and very light. ;*)



slinky wrote:
Hi Willy,

I find it very odd that they, Windance refuses your board because it's too old, a 2004. 9 years. There is no mention of this policy on their website.

I just checked their used gear, and they have two F2 Xantos' for sale. I would guess based on the shape, that they date from '96- 2000.

Anyhow glad you managed to sell your old board. I'd be ticked too!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 6034

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl, I have to say that I offered my opinion based on your earlier comments. While there is a lot of truth to what you said, I believe that it sends a bit of a negative message, particularly to those looking to invest into the sport.

I remember a few years back seeing photos of some of your boards in the back of your minivan. I could tell that you really take care of your equipment. Doesn't it bother you some that stuff loses value so quickly? You see it with brand new equipment, but particularly boards and sails that are 1 or 2 year old models. The stuff can lose up to 50% of its value simply because it was left over from the prior season. It's no small wonder that retailers don't carry a lot of stock, and instead prefer to focus on early season advance orders so they don't get stuck with questionable inventory.

I have to admit that I have a different strategy when it comes to buying boards. I order custom boards (Mike's Lab and Open Ocean), and I ultimately buy them to keep them. Why sell them a few years down the road for almost nothing. Are my boards short on quality and performance because they're 2, 5 or even 10 years old? I'm currently using two that are a lot older than that. Lots of them look timeless simply because they lack the dated graphics that show a board's age. I have so many great boards right now, it's doubtful that I'll ever need to buy a new one ever again. Of course, I'm an old guy that is retired, and I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to make the most of what I have. I guess that I've taken the point of view that the stuff I've bought is really an investment.

And boardsurfr, no need to worry. I'm never going to turn to kiting. I've been a windsurfer for 28 years now, and I remain completely dedicated to the sport.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3114
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the discussion, on the value of motorcycles and windsurf boards while interesting is off topic. Aside from the reference to what Windance thought the board in question was perhaps worth.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 6034

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe Dave Nunn of Windance will offer his view of things. Isn't it what Windance did and didn't do at the source of Willy's frustration?
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1195
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
johnl, I have to say that I offered my opinion based on your earlier comments. While there is a lot of truth to what you said, I believe that it sends a bit of a negative message, particularly to those looking to invest into the sport.

I remember a few years back seeing photos of some of your boards in the back of your minivan. I could tell that you really take care of your equipment. Doesn't it bother you some that stuff loses value so quickly? You see it with brand new equipment, but particularly boards and sails that are 1 or 2 year old models. The stuff can lose up to 50% of its value simply because it was left over from the prior season. It's no small wonder that retailers don't carry a lot of stock, and instead prefer to focus on early season advance orders so they don't get stuck with questionable inventory.


Thanks for the kind words on how I take care of my gear (true) but I also accept the fact that recreation equipment looses value very quickly. I can speak for the Gorge, other areas not so much. There is a ton of gear here. Think about it. People come from all over the place, buy new gear, sell old gear, or drop old gear off at Windance for consignment sales. Because of that there is a LOT of gear (I'm surprised Isobars, hasn't chimed in, he has been a big proponent of the gear here in the Gorge for years) available for the buyer. THAT makes this area a buyers market. Then you throw in the fact that many companies upped their production in 2010 for some windsurfing event (I'm sure in Europe) but then at the same time the economy tanked causing IMHO gear to remain in the warehouses. Now we are seeing more and more of this gear (my example of a NEW Starboard Quad 76 board I bought for $750), add to that the deal that Windance got on some rental gear from Brazil and we got flooded with gear this year. That drives the prices down and also drives down the value of the gear we all have.

I accept that any gear I have that when it comes time to sell it that my best price is going to be 50% of what I paid for it and most likely less. So I don't look at windsurfing gear as an investment but a "toy" that looses value. So I try to get as much use out of it as possible.

Also as a retired person on a fixed income my days of new boards are pretty much gone (even with the connections I have), but like most I still like newer stuff. So I'm always out there looking for deals....

As to off topic, the OP had a RANT. So quite frankly any response is off topic. The conversation goes where the conversation goes..... Cool
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14632

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
I'm surprised Isobars, hasn't chimed in

Mikey is spending several hours a day rehabbing his knee preparatory to surgery.

Iíve always found Windance to be an excellent new and used gear dealer, providing solid advice and very good prices. As long as I can recall, their board age cutoff has been ~10 years, but as the man said above, they will take older boards and reject newer boards depending on their sales potential (Bart did that, too, in his shop; itís just sound business). They also take sellersí word on board age, which sellers often bias towards newer by a few years. Owner Dave knows that certain older boards sell well.

Having lusted after boats for years, then buying one, I can really identify with PPís most excellent quote:
ďThe best day in a boat owner's life is when he sells his boat.
The best day in a windsurfer's life is when he buys a new board.Ē

His other comment, ďIf its about money, buy usedĒ, is also a no-brainer. Find a guy going over to the dark side and clean him out. Iíve snagged carefully chosen current-year highly desirable boards for $400 that way Ö then sold them a few years later for a 25% profit to another buyer who ALSO got a good deal.

Iíve found some great long-sought oldies (i.e., 5-10 years old) at 2nd Wind (they still carry many used boards, and owner Pepi knows those boards well and first-hand) that light my fire like nothing Iíve tried since 2008. The Rogue Wave I snared there turned out to be RW shaper Lee Britainís own one-off carbon personal board, and is the only board Iíve ever owned that feels like itís actually hinged amidships -- in a good way -- when carving high-speed, high-g turns midriver. Pushed way beyond my skill level in way too much wind, that board has NEVER bitten me; its only surprises have been positive ones. I hope to grow into its performance envelope before my body rebels.

$112, and LOL shore to shore.

Of course, thereís the flip side, to which John alludes with ďI'm always amazed at some of the prices people have listed on used equipment at the swap meets. And see them time and time again with the same stuff.Ē Iíve seen the same pair of gorgeous, pristine, but pre-owned [very fast, very high-end, brand and model] boards at swap meets for years now priced at 1,500 Ö EACH. They were still there this year, still not selling despite being priced now at $700 apiece.

However, with both new and used, buying boards is all about caveat emptor, and anyone hung up on a few hundred bucks is in the wrong sport, as PP implied. Yeah, I know, itís about the principle, but doesnít that usually mean itís about the money? We all sympathize, though, and at least I concur with your ďI don't want to create a big deal of this, it is just a rant. I was expecting a little bit of help from them.Ē If we canít rant here, then Ö where? Besides, "Rant" is a pretty broad topic.
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