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modulating jibe radius
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14035

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
isobars wrote:

My jibe tips explain that only after I learned to dynamically modulate my carve did my jibes start to click. (snip)The same goes for sheeting modulation.


This is not how to learn how to plane through a jibe. It's what Peter Hart refers to as "dabbing" and everyone else as lack of commitment. You lose speed and add board bounce doing this, ending up with a nonplaning finish. While it's true that as a jiber advances it is possible to make subtle tweaks to board and sail during the carve to plane through, the learning jiber is infinitely better off making smooth, committed movements.

That's partly true, and even practical on paper, but let's get back to the real world, where we're threading multiple needles during our jibe attempts. Said real-world needles often include big moving/morphing chunks of terrain, two or three gusts/holes per jibe, and/or swarms of planing, schlogging, and/or fallen sailors and rigs. Anyone who can't negotiate those obstacles while jibing is forced to go find wind and space somewhere else ... if that's available. "Subtle tweaks" won't cut it in such a world, which can require full temporary arc reversals, let alone minor course deviations, on the way to a planing exit broad reach. I've had to swerve 15 feet mid-jibe to dodge crashing sailors, and often have to cut back upwind after bearing off for any number of common reasons even when jibing alone.

This ain't slot cars. Jibing by a book is great for a textbook venue in a textbook world, but I've almost never seen that venue north of the Grand Caymans.

In addition, as I've stated several times, the feel for one's gear that enables such course modulation boosts the feel required to carve predictably even at the idyllic spots where these videos are shot. That feel comes from doing it -- "it" including slashing, freestyle, practicing (anything beyond cruising) -- more than from reading about it. If the best we can do is cruise in a straight line, jibing even on the foggy mirrors used in beginning jibe videos will be a loftier goal than if we can also maneuver at will. You see, there's more -- MUCH more -- than "planing" to "planing though a jibe". Once board maneuvering becomes second nature, our brains and neuropaths are freer to concentrate on the other challenges of jibing.

And as I've also insisted despite considerable objection here, commitment is necessary ... but commitment without flexibility in those real world scenarios is a likely path to at least an unnecessary fall or stall, at most a ramming incident. A summer day in the corridor makes jibing much like playing pinball, where we're the ball and everyone else is a cushion, a flipper, and/or a lawyer.

Mike \m/
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy shooting the video said something about "dirty sex".
He wasn't too far off ;*)

-Craig

PeconicPuffin wrote:
[That looked like fun!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5761

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Hey, I live in the Columbia River Gorge where the conditions are super tough and outrageous almost 100% of the time, so you should look and listen to me above all others."


Is there a high action video out there showing us how this guy can totally rip it up in the real world?

It's almost a given that if folks that are truly experts at windsurfing, there is usually a professional or an accomplished amateur photographer capturing photos and videos of the action, particularly on the big days. How can such a talented Gorge sailor be missed by those with a great eye for the action? One wonders why an excellent Northwestern photographer like Trudy hasn't caught him throwing up great walls of water while instantly ripping and slashing high speed jibes.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1207

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

let's get back to the real world, where we're threading multiple needles during our jibe attempts. Said real-world needles often include big moving/morphing chunks of terrain, two or three gusts/holes per jibe, and/or swarms of planing, schlogging, and/or fallen sailors and rigs.


In the real world, you don't have a grip on how learning to plane through a jibe actually works.

The very first item in the jibe checklist is to look around to make sure you are safe to jibe. If you can not locate a patch of water free of swarms of planing schlogging fallen sailors and rigs, don't initiate. This is commonly taught and practiced.

Big moving chunks of terrain is not where the aspiring planing jiber should be working on their jibes. If that's their only choice, then they jibe between the swell.

Jibe in the gusts.

Incredibly even in the Gorge there are flattish water areas where people learn to jibe. You could just go watch the ABK clinic, if you can't bring yourself to take it. You'll at least see that in the land of big moving/morphing chunks of terrain, there are suitable spots to learn to plane through a jibe.
And you'd see how professional windsurfing instructors git 'er done.

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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1207

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
"Hey, I live in the Columbia River Gorge where the conditions are super tough and outrageous almost 100% of the time, so you should look and listen to me above all others."


Is there a high action video out there showing us how this guy can totally rip it up in the real world?

It's almost a given that if folks that are truly experts at windsurfing, there is usually a professional or an accomplished amateur photographer capturing photos and videos of the action, particularly on the big days. How can such a talented Gorge sailor be missed by those with a great eye for the action? One wonders why an excellent Northwestern photographer like Trudy hasn't caught him throwing up great walls of water while instantly ripping and slashing high speed jibes.


That's a good question. For that matter, nowadays most everybody has a phone that can shoot video...friends capture their sailing buddies on the water all the time. Surely someone has captured Iso in 5th gear with a foot buried in the throttle near redline, slashing extremely tight, close to 180 degrees with a big toe stab while hooked in and WFO, no-perceptable-loss-of-full-speed, high-G, full power unanticipated turns throwing walls of water with zero fatigue or soreness on a 6.2 when others the same size have rerigged one, two, or even three times on 4.xs or even 3.xs?

Or for that matter, simply carving a jibe and exiting on a plane.

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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14035

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
you don't have a grip on how learning to plane through a jibe actually works.


I'm very sorry. I actually thought I'd learned something from the 9 years I spent trying to learn how to jibe from the best instructors I could find from Corpus to the Gorge to Maui.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
The very first item in the jibe checklist is to look around to make sure you are safe to jibe. If you can not locate a patch of water free of swarms of planing schlogging fallen sailors and rigs, don't initiate. This is commonly taught and practiced ...

in textbooks. Try it at the Hatchery on a good July day, whether that's simply where you want to sail or you're there because it's not blowing at the Event site.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Big moving chunks of terrain is not where the aspiring planing jiber should be working on their jibes. If that's their only choice, then they jibe between the swell.


That's called modulating one's jibe radius/path. It also requires that we have flat water at both ends of our available reach, which is highly optimistic in almost every lake and ocean I've sailed on. It also presumes swell rather than big random chop, and adds additional challenges (e.g., tilt, timing, balance, apparent wind changes) to learning to jibe.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Jibe in the gusts.

Now we're back to often dealing with excess wind, often aided by gittin' 'er done without "eating lunch".

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Incredibly even in the Gorge there are flattish water areas where people learn to jibe.

Sure ... some days, some spots, some wind patterns, and often in the company of a few dozen like-minded students also willing to forego the hot spots in order to practice.

PeconicPuffin wrote:
And you'd see how professional windsurfing instructors git 'er done.

You're implying that everyone has access to ABK, and that Larned, Cadiz, Big Winds, and Corpus Christi's to instructor are amateur instructors.

Michael, you're not going to force everyone here to kowtow to your insistence that your way is the only way to jibe or to learn how to jibe. Your only chance is through persuasion, not force, mandate, or belittlement. This ain't New Yawk City, and not every reader here travels to the Caribbean every year.

If you can find someone who wants to take his time to video my sailing, feel free to do so; it's a free river. One caveat: s/he must stay the hell out of my way. My sailing time is the most precious time I have on this planet, and deliberately interfering with it is hazardous. Why you give a damn escapes me, though.


Last edited by isobars on Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 540

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Surely someone has captured Iso in 5th gear with a foot buried in the throttle near redline, slashing extremely tight, close to 180 degrees with a big toe stab while hooked in and WFO, no-perceptable-loss-of-full-speed, high-G, full power unanticipated turns throwing walls of water with zero fatigue or soreness...
Laughing Laughing Laughing
Sounds like Philip Köster to me! He has indeed been caught on video. But the video includes freestyle like planed-through double loops, wave 360s, and Wasabis Smile.
PeconicPuffin wrote:
...on a 6.2 when others the same size have rerigged one, two, or even three times on 4.xs or even 3.xs?
Maybe it's just the big sails that are holding iso back? Philip uses small sails. Go small, go high, iso!
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14035

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't ... rather, won't ... go smaller. I used to buy 2.8s, but found virtually no use for them around here. The only place I could enjoy them was in New Mexico, and not often enough even there keep buying them.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5761

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"My sailing time is the most precious time I have on this planet, and deliberately interfering with it is hazardous."



Wow! Better watch out folks. You might want to check out Mo's latest cartoon.

http://www.iwindsurf.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26337&start=80
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 617
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before this thread, I don't think I've ever consciously contemplated modulating my jybe radius. Question Question You're overthinking it. You need to feel it.

We all learn in different ways, so, different strokes I guess.
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