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Toe in asymmetrical fins, becoming the new awesome
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noshuzbluz



Joined: 18 May 2000
Posts: 777

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Open Ocean later simply copied the GA Bonzer cant angle shamelessly (and illegally) because it works.


Well what the heck was that then? It sure wasn't puppies and kittens???
Geez Mike. get your story straight or shut the hell up.
BTW. I take back the ObamaCare thing. I only did that to piss you off.

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3084
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:


And HELL, yes I have axes to grind with many people. I don't brook assholes well, and have met many, beginning with wardog a couple of decades ago and expanding beyond an explicit list of 30 and counting more recently.

I'll ask Brian about his side of the Bonzer fin cant story next time I see him, if only because this thread renewed the story to correct a false statement about the subject.


WOW

you have an explicit list of 30 people who fall into the brook transitive verb meaning . You don't deserve a response to anything.

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5908

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Lester had to obtain license from the Campbells to use their thoroughly researched proprietary Bonzer technology."


I have to say that I refreshed my memory of the Campbell Brothers "bonzer" surfboards, most of which were 5 fin designs with forward set clusters of sharply shaped triangular fins with long leading edges. Sure enough, after checking the link that isobars posted, I found that they are still using this design arrangement, but they seem to be offering some tri-fin designs too.

The thing about Gorge Animals is the fact that they used the Campbell Brothers' 5 fin design concept with little or no change. That makes the patent issue and licensing much more relevant to what happened. If one compares any OO tri-fin with a classic Gorge Animal 5 fin bonzer, the differences in design are night and day.
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noshuzbluz



Joined: 18 May 2000
Posts: 777

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If one compares any OO tri-fin with a classic Gorge Animal 5 fin bonzer, the differences in design are night and day.


Brian touched on this point as well today. He adopted the canted fin concept for different reasons than Lester did, and his fins are nothing like the bonzers.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On that we agree. However ... Even though I initially missed U2's reference to Steve Thorp's and Graham Ezzy's modern work on the development and performance of asymmetric fins, specifically the K4 Ezzy Asy Stubby for quads and tri-fin boards discussed at
http://tinyurl.com/mnb8d9a , that doesn't excuse or explain his claim that assymetric fins are a new idea not previously seen in off-the-shelf WS boards, specifically Bonzers, before. [You want accuracy; you got it, but you still don't get to rewrite history just because you rediscovered the wheel.]

Who do we believe ... an anonymous internet dood or two guys who are not only household names in our sport but who actually reveal their real identity. Wow ... imagine the courage that requires!

No wonder so many people fear data mining; they're afraid to open their activity and comments to public scrutiny.


Last edited by isobars on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3084
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars,

Take a moment to got back to the original post, see the link there ..? tab on it, see that it is indeed the same as your tinyurl link

then explain Why anything you write could be considered credible ? No only do I know about the K4s they are the reason for this ENTIRE thread.

This is funny its absurd

These may not NOW be the only Graham Ezzy K4s with toe and asymmetrical foils in the USA, but they were
a. First
b. dam close to first



The rather large array of K4s have on the very top the smaller of the quad set,
have been modified to fit a ProBox and have a inside foil that I fashioned myself similar to a 80/20.



I have forgotten more about K4s than you know.

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3084
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the copyright discussion is interesting, as Maui Ultra Fin took JP- Australia to court over a copy of their X-Wave design, probably part of the decision was to not disclose the decision, but think I know who came out on top.

Not being a patten/copyright attorney I only type from a common sense aspect, which the law does not always follow.

If a patten is not established for a product/ design it can be used by anyone.

Tabou developed the SlotBox, produced at Cobra, and chose NOT to copyright the design, for a specific purpose, so that others could use it out of Cobra or Worldwide, which it is .

I cant see how someone could claim a particular fin cant layout is theirs alone, and subject to infringement laws or proprietary as property.

but like I said I ain't no Philadelphia lawyer

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noshuzbluz



Joined: 18 May 2000
Posts: 777

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Brian touched on this point as well today. He adopted the canted fin concept for different reasons than Lester did, and his fins are nothing like the bonzers.


isobars wrote:
On that we agree. However ... U2 is apparently unaware of Steve Thorp's and Graham Ezzy's work on the development and performance of asymmetric fins, specifically the K4 Ezzy Asy Stubby for quads and tri-fin boards.
http://tinyurl.com/mnb8d9a .
Who do we believe ... an anonymous internet dood or two guys who are not only household names in our sport but who actually reveal their real identity. Wow ... imagine the courage that requires!

No wonder so many people fear data mining; they're afraid to open their activity and comments to public scrutiny.


You know I would usually let this go because it's really not worth it but if this is what you say "we agree" on, why the hell did you bring this up to begin with?

Here's another quote for ya Mike.

Quote:
My God ... and to think people think I'M arrogant (and wrong)!

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
All the new (like 2006 on) multi fin wave windsurf boards are just gimmicks.

I see multi fins as a gimmick. None of the owners can justify their sailing by the potential turning prowess of the design. OK, a few pros can.

I was very impressed with the upwind ability of North Pacific WS boards. Whether that's unique to multiple fins or to his designs, I don't know, but pointing really helps recover ground lost by playing off the wind.

Also, both modern debates and 1990s differences between various multifin components, platforms (hull shapes), and configurations lead me to believe their performance and thus advantages vary widely. My own testing agreed with our test fleet's conclusions that the 1990's crop favored two boards -- the OO and the GA Bonzers -- over the competition, and that their advantages were most pronounced in aggressive intermediates moving up to advanced ability. Sailors such as the ranked pros and their like (e.g. Tom James of WSMag) had already learned to ride single fins properly, and thus found the GA Bonzer designs advantageous only under especially demanding conditions such as cranking out full-speed tight jibes in harsh terrain such as Gorge chop and closely spaced east coast surf, in neither of which did they bounce out. The superior control of GA Bonzers at high speed in heavy terrain helped ordinary schmucks like myself make dramatic leaps in ability literally overnight, but as Lester admitted years later, once a rider gets good enough to use single fins right, his Bonzers became superfluous except in exceptionally challenging conditions. I also still maintain that OOs tame rough conditions very well, although via different means, as Brian said above regarding fin cant.

All that and many magazine comparisons suggest to me that fin count does not, alone, tell us how any board will behave, that generalities are limited. Heck, if a gimmick helps me sail better, I'm all for it. The fourth thing I reach for (after my helmet, kevlar vest, and very select and proven quiver of appropriate very small boards) when going out in the Gorge's most scary conditions is a slotted fin -- a gimmick.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noshuzbluz wrote:
why the hell did you bring this up to begin with?


Because U2 incorrectly wrote:
NONE::: please read that NONE ::::have asymmetrical fins, front, back, side tri, quad or bonzer .
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