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Do I have delamination?
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LUCARO



Joined: 07 Dec 1997
Posts: 226

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just dealt with one of these based on the boardlady's guidelines (at least the ones i remembered to follow)

Key points: If you can push in the deck without much in the way of cracking sounds then the expanding marine foam is supposed to work well. Injecting epoxy is generally not such a great fix. If you are going to do the marine foam injection a vaccum pump is not required as the top layer of divinycell will remain in place. You will need to add some glass over the top of the filling holes though

Most importantly (this is the step i forgot) leave glass intact prior to filling with foam. once cured sand down top layer of glass and glass over holes. If you sand the glass first then fill with foam you will get a deck bubble.

Also no need to mix too much of that foam it expands hecka much.

http://www.boardlady.com/5848.htm

Ps: If you want to skip the expanding marine foam I have heard of guys injecting gorilla glue mixed with water into soft spots. I guess the water/glue mixture foams up. no idea on ratios or longterm success rate.
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bred2shred



Joined: 02 May 2000
Posts: 658
Location: Jersey Shore

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, injecting expanding foam and injecting epoxy are both the WRONG solution (unless this is an el-cheapo board that you really don't care about). The structure of a composite windsurf board is fairly complex- way more complex than your average surfboard which is just a foam core with a fiberglass skin laminated over top.

A windsurf board has several thin layers of composite fiber skins with various densities of foam sandwiched between to create a strong, lightweight structure. The low density EPS core provides little structural support. What has likely happened is the outer skin and high-density core has failed (common for older boards which have been sailed hard since the area right in front of the back footstrap is stepped on repeatedly due to jibing). I had the exact same issue you describe occur a couple years ago with an Mistral Syncro. The outer skins and high density core were obliterated and the EPS core was being deteriorated due to the repeated flexing. Your report of 3/4" of flex in the deck tells me that the exact same thing has happend to your board.

If you just fill this with epoxy, you will create several problems- the moisture that entered the board will now be trapped in the board. You will likely add upwards of a pound of weight to the board depending on the actual volume of area that is damaged. And most importantly, you will not be doing anything to repair the damaged outer skins/high density foam which is intended to be the main load carrying structure of the board. All of the load in this area will be transferred to the low density EPS foam core which is not intended to be load bearing. It will likely continue to degrade and you'll be faced with the same problem in the not so distant future.

When I repaired my board, I used a router to cut out all of the damaged composite and foam (yes, you will be cutting big holes in your board. I then filled the void with high density expanding foam, sanded down, and laminated a heavy layer of glass over the whole area. Even this repair I knew was not a long-term solution, but I was just looking for something to get me through the season. I got rid of the board at the end of the season (and the new owner was made well aware of the repair that was done).

The bottom line is that you have major structural damage going on. Injecting with foam or epoxy is not not going to provide you with a long-term repair, probably not even a decent short-term repair. You need to repair the structural damage that has been done or find someone who can do the work. I would also closely inspect for heel dents at the foot straps if the prior owner jumped the board.

sm
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5832

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sm, you are quite right in your recommendations, but my experience with an epoxy injection says it can work to give the board a bit more longevity. However, it shouldn't be considered an actual repair. It's just a way to keep things going for a period of time. The important point to consider is whether the deck structure has be visibly cracked or broken. You can always do a simple leak test to see if there is any water in the board. If water leaks out in the test, there is no way epoxy injection will work. Yet, if the board is still watertight, there is a good chance that you can squeeze more use out of the board. Like I mentioned earlier, its been done on two of my boards without any further problems. One of them is still going strong at least 6-7 years after the epoxy injection was done. The other board was retired about a year after the injection. I should point out that both boards are Mike's Labs, so the original construction was superior to what you get in a production board. Maybe that is the difference.

Lastly, in my view, the added weight would be negligible. A pound of epoxy is a huge amount of material. I would think that 1-3 syringes full would be all that you would need. After plugging the injection site, I would recommend turning the board over with the bottom up during the full cure cycle. That way the epoxy will effectively flow into the compromised areas. Epoxy injection will not restore the look of the deck, so it may look dented in after the process, but it should be solid and no longer flex in or out.
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bred2shred



Joined: 02 May 2000
Posts: 658
Location: Jersey Shore

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
The important point to consider is whether the deck structure has be visibly cracked or broken.


He said the deck depresses 3/4". There is no way this would happen if the deck structure as well as the EPS foam below has not been damaged. I can pretty much guarantee if he cuts the busted area out, he will find areas of the outer sandwich structure that are fully cracked through as well as crumbled white foam below the damaged deck structure. Additionally, he said the soft area is about 4" x 6". I would expect that if he does an autopsy of the board, he will find that the damaged area likely extends significantly farther than that. The damage probably goes from the front of the back footstrap area to the back of the front footstrap area. I would not be surprised if the damaged area sucks up a pound of epoxy resin. But regardless, that's really not the point. The point is that if there is 3/4" of deck flex, it means the deck structure has been compromised and it can't be properly repaired by just injecting goo. It needs to have the broken structure (fibers and foam) replaced or it will just get worse.

Long story short, the guy bought a lemon. He can take it as an opportunity to educate himself on composite repair or he can give the ole' epoxy squirt a try, but I really doubt it will provide satisfactory, long-term results.

sm
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Jim.od3



Joined: 25 Aug 2012
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on the advice I got here, I think I need some hands-on help to diagnose the extent of the damage and the best course of action. I think the smartest thing to do is to take the board to an experienced board repair person for a recommendation/quote. I live in Oregon, not too far from Hood River. Does anybody know of a good repair person they could point me to? Or maybe Portland?

Thanks to everybody for the input. I definitely bought a lemon, and I just want to make the best out of a bum deal. Live and learn. Now I know one more thing to watch out for, and I may end up getting some experience in board construction and repair techniques.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1258
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if Pierre is still around, but here's an 10 year old number
you can try. He did most of the board repair in and around Hood River.
His work is very good.

Pierre Porhel, (541) 490-6241 board repairs

-Craig

Jim.od3 wrote:
Based on the advice I got here, I think I need some hands-on help to diagnose the extent of the damage and the best course of action. I think the smartest thing to do is to take the board to an experienced board repair person for a recommendation/quote. I live in Oregon, not too far from Hood River. Does anybody know of a good repair person they could point me to? Or maybe Portland?

Thanks to everybody for the input. I definitely bought a lemon, and I just want to make the best out of a bum deal. Live and learn. Now I know one more thing to watch out for, and I may end up getting some experience in board construction and repair techniques.
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