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1st and 2nd Amendments under attack
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4122

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Realistically, that would probably require $8 per gallon gasoline. I'm all for it. That way, finally the Obama passion will rot. Unbelievable that I can hire guys that used to make $30 per hour for $10 per hour today. It sickens me. More people on welfare than work in California. Obamacare postponed because of incompetence. Fast and Furious, Bengahzi, Solyndra, $104 barrel oil today, debasing our currency, sending federal workers out to incite unrest in Zimmerman, and the parade just keeps on coming.

Go ahead and charge the little guy double for energy. Food, cars, energy are all rising, but wages are falling. Great job Obama. THIS IS THE SLOWEST RECOVERY IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the many reasons that health care costs are high is that many folks are sickened by dirty power plants. The costs get applied to health care and not energy. This is one example of the sort of math calcs that I find conservatives not wanting to run.

The costs are there. They are just hidden somewhere else or kicked down the road...again.

You are wrong on welfare vs workers in Calif., Stevenbard. Factcheck debunks this. You are one of the few conservatives who I think actually makes a case for his philosophy. Do not fall for the BS.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4122

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh, the truth is that more people collect from the Federal govt in California than are on PRIVATE PAYROLLS. You are correct if you add govt workers. Then there are slightly more. However is this a good equation either way?

As for pollution, the medical costs in China would be astronomical....if they took care of the people. However, I don't see or hear of substantial pollution in the U.S. Either way, from a cost accounting standpoint, the little people will pay the price. Higher energy or higher healthcare costs.

Don't be fooled that in this oligarchy, Obama will make his donors pay. The 1% exist in China, Russia, Cuba and the U.S.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5222

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks CB, you've outed me. I'm an Eisenhower Republican. Libertarian on personal issues--so the social conservatives hate me, and a conservative on fiscal issues so the faux conservatives (Obama haters) hate me. I use this forum to respond to nonsense, and force myself to think and actually check the facts. I find it rather amusing that those who don't most often attack the messenger, not the message. Like self-important oil executives, caught in rash and false statements, tell everyone I don't know what I'm talking about.

Bard--I write about chemicals because I know about them and have cleaned them up for decades. Our cancer rate is very high, and will continue to increase because of exposures. The family of chemicals associated with rings, which include the petroleum family and many pesticides, and many antibiotics, mimic our endocrine system. When we see feminizing effects in frogs and fish, what do you think it is doing to our own systems? Don't believe people who tell you that chemicals like DDT are perfectly safe.

But I'm sure it upsets you that the economy is improving, that TARP and the mild stimulus worked, and that California is leading the way despite everyone's complaints about taxes. Government is actually smaller at every level since Obama came into office.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 982

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
We get it that you would rather let a home invader disembowel your children, or a mugger beat your wife to a pulp, or some Bozo shoot up a city street, than kill him first. That's your choice ... if the victims are alright with that. But don't try to tell the rest of us that we should follow your example; that's OUR choice.


Thank you for making assumptions on my behalf, but the truth is that in Canada I don't need to walk around like some paranoid nut case. Heck, 90% of the time I have my front door unlocked. I call THAT freedom.

isobars wrote:

You'll understand when you get a little older and wiser ... or when you lose a loved one to a criminal. Let's hope it's the former; the latter sucks.


I would consider learning from your mistakes an aspect of wisdom, and doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is pretty much insane. So I think in Canada and Australia we may just be a little wiser and a whole lot less insane. I think the "odds schmodds" or statistics would support that quite nicely.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stevenbard. The Center for Health estimates that we spend about $250B per year on health costs for coal. Total costs to the public, not included in your power bill, total from 1/3 to 1/2 Billion according to a Harvard study. This is real money by my calc.

Your definition of "welfare" includes government employees, retires, Medicare and social security?
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reinerehlers

I grew up in South Dakota. Never locked our doors either...my folks still don't. Both North and South Dakota have lower homicide rates than either Australia or Canada yet greater than 50 percent of homes own guns. Hmmm. Maybe there is more to the equation?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14179

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
I do not recall a post by a conservative yet where we see any specifics in how to restrain government spending and growth.

Also, continued silence when you, and I, have asked if they would support a policy that fossil fuel producers be responsible for attaching the health and environmental costs to their products..

Nor has any of you self-proclaimed oil and energy experts answered repeated questions about the theories -- from one of Russia's foremost oil experts -- of the abiotic (i.e., mineral and self-regenerating) origin of oil. Realistic? Insane? Debatable? As silly as saying bacteria, not stress, causes ulcers?

Most of the conservatives here are not so arrogant as to think we can solve a problem hundreds of thousands of paid professionals have not yet solved. We also realize that, in a Republic, by definition we elect supposedly wise and informed officials to solve problems that big. We ALSO understand the folly in wallowing in third decimal points when the solutions lie 9 to 12 places to the left of the decimal point. Then there's the little issue of Pelosi, at.al., et. Reid., who have stated that they will not even consider the endless stream of GOP solutions to any or all of the government's woes. AAAAAAND, of course, there are the left wing media (i.e., 94% of the media, by their own admission and/or donation records) who accuse Ryan, et.al, et. Boehner., of throwing Grandma off the cliff and countless similar lies in order to discredit THEM, rather than debate the merits of their bills and ideas honestly. (Where oh where do we see that every day on this very screen?)

One possible solution that could shift the underlying problem from Washington, DC back to the idiot masses is electing officials based on competence and proven ability rather than skin color, gender, popularity, connections, promises, free stuff, religious affiliation, "coolth", etc.

Good luck wid dat, when most voters have never heard of Biden, the NSA, Boehner, Korea, Ahmadinejad, or the national debt.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14179

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
Thank you for making assumptions on my behalf, but the truth is that in Canada I don't need to walk around like some paranoid nut case. Heck, 90% of the time I have my front door unlocked. I call THAT freedom.

I think in Canada and Australia we may just be a little wiser and a whole lot less insane. I think the "odds schmodds" or statistics would support that quite nicely.

I made no assumptions. Rather, I read your own words: "What has more weight, God's word or man's? "thou shalt not kill", or "the right to bear arms?" Heck, you guys, at least your UK counterparts, even treat soccer hooligans as public nuisances, rather than the mass murderers they often are.

Until about the time I finished high school, my folks and I would leave our doors unlocked even during two-week Christmas vacations a thousand miles away. Things have changed. Within just the next 3 or 4 years, I lost friends to murders, watched the KKK march openly through local streets, experienced burglaries, and more ... and that was decades before drugs, especially meth, swept the streets (the most common thread among dangerous criminals, according to my SWAT instructors, who add that it takes serious firepower, not a little .40 caliber New York State police Glock limited to 7 rounds, to reliably stop an assailant on meth).

Until that explosion of crime, I'd agree Canada and Canadians may have been wiser and saner in this regard. No mas.

Don't forget that risk is the mathematical product of two factors: the likelihood (odds) of an event times the value (in this case, the threat) of that event. If the threat approaches infinity (loss of life or grave bodily harm, in the eyes of the law), even a low likeihood of just 0.001 produces a risk too great for me to ignore. When such a risk is deliberately imposed with criminal intent, I want "the odds" about 1,000% in my favor. That's not going to happen, but I surely can load the dice in my favor.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5222

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB--back to questions of governance, and reform--largely lost in the ad hominem attacks from the right and their support for political amateurs. Two interesting bits in today's news. First, an op ed in the Chronicle notes that the NTSB has recommended to the FAA, as early as 1996, requiring warnings of low aircraft speed. Those recommendations have not been adopted--but might have prevented the crash of the Asiana flight. Second, a state panel has recommended modifications to the regulatory structure for refineries in the wake of the Chevron fire. Of particular note in that story was a comment by refinery workers that equipment storage is "pervasive", and preventative maintenance gets short shrift. Now to root causes.

I have worked on legislative policy-making for over thirty-five years. Until about thirty years ago, compromises were made and legislation passed with bi-partisan majorities. But the last time I remember a truly organic piece of legislation was the Clean Air Act amendments of 1990. I had nothing to do with that legislation, but a close friend of mine was Deputy Director of the California Air Resources Board at the time. CARB was influential in the framing of the CAA, and was dominated during his tenure by Republicans--who were not afraid to say no to oil and auto companies when they were being unreasonable. Not to give a pass to Democrats--I remember an era where Dems were willing to say no to enviros and unions when they were being unreasonable. The stalemate is most evident in development of budgets--since about 1995, nearly every Federal budget has been in the form of a continuing resolution, rather than an overall look at the Federal budget in a manner that sets priorities and resolves differences in underlying political philosophies with compromise. Just look at yesterday's action by the House on the Farm bill--stripping out food stamps entirely and increasing subsidies for agriculture. A non-starter.

Government is inherently less efficient than business. It is made sclerotic by due process and transparency requirements that are admirable in the abstract and brain numbing in the aggregate. In working on improving public access to water for recreation, I find the unwillingness of agencies to make a decision without a stakeholding process, and the paranoia of local governments about being sued under the Disabilities Act particularly stultifying. Stasis is the normal condition--and regulation of refineries that made sense when crude was sweeter and we knew less about accidents, and farm subsidies that made sense in the 1930's, have survived and become nearly impossible to change.

Change is not impossible--but it takes knowledge, understanding, and hard work. The championing of outsiders, e.g. the Tea Party, may arise from a worthy motive. But the result is the election of many folks who were the City Council gadflies--willing to comment on every action without bothering to truly inform themselves on anything.

Reform takes knowledge--not repeating Fox talking points, from wherever you got them. But like managing a business, or a governmental department, it starts with an understanding of the budget. Too few, right or left, elected or not, make that effort. Even fewer dig below the totals to see what the programs actually do, and whether or not they are worthwhile. We need committed politicians willing to hold legislative hearings, and put sunset dates on programs unless they are re-authorized. Kind of like the sequester concept--but with politicians and legislative staff willing to do their homework before it comes back for a vote.
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