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1st and 2nd Amendments under attack
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1000

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
I guess you could have said no, you really didn't think about how offensive your question was. My point, exactly.
Thank you for answering for me. When you're not busy answering your own questions perhaps you can reply to some of those put forth to you.

mac wrote:
You need not take ownership for the entire litany of vile, misogynistic things coming from the right on the abortion issue--just those that you support.
I do? Thank you for informing me of that, but do you not think you are making some very broad assumptions?

mac wrote:
I did say that the right keeps using language that is offensive, and that makes a discussion nearly impossible.
Are you overly sensitive? A discussion is impossible when both parties will not listen to the other's opinion. If I don't necessarily agree with your viewpoint nor you with mine it doesn't mean the discussion is impossible. It means there is a difference of opinion.

Questions for you:
How would you define promiscuous?

In your opinion what is the cut off time for termination of a pregnancy?

Would you deem it acceptable to terminate the fetus / child's life after delivery?

What is the difference between the two scenarios above?

If the female should decide to terminate the pregnancy should the male be able to block that decision legally?

What leaves greater emotional scars, the termination of a pregnancy or being poor?

What do you base your opinion or moral compass upon?

Is there a shortage of children for adoption?

If a "Christian" couple should wish to adopt a child should they be denied this because their views of homosexuality are based upon their biblical beliefs?

Is the above a form of discrimination?

Please note the above are questions and not statements.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5356

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It amazes me that when it is pointed out that someone has said something offensive, their immediate response is that you are too sensitive. Part of that dismissive behavior--the larger message is that your feelings are not valid.

The assumptions embedded in describing someone else's behavior as "promiscuous" are at the heart of the insensitivity and misogyny of the "question." It posits the likelihood that the answer is yes, and it defines promiscuity as a problem with women, not with men. Perhaps it is not that I am sensitive, perhaps it is that your are insensitive, and able to be educated about more value-neutral use of language.

Most of the rest of your questions are loaded, and answered largely in law--look above for the specific citation of the Roe v. Wade decision. If you are seeking to adopt and raise a child in some type of Christianity that demeans homosexuality, I am sure that there are plenty of evangelical churches who can make arrangements for you. Perhaps mrgybe can give you a reference. Or perhaps you might be interested in the many thousands of kids in foster care that haven't been adopted and were taken from unfit parents. Doesn't seem like a shortage of children for adoption. But then I know--I adopted.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5356

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a little myth-busting on fetal pain and the various claims, such as abortion leads to disease and mental illness, try: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/science-house-abortion-ban-fetal-pain

Then there is the question about popular mandate--interesting comments here:

Quote:
The bill in question is Senate Bill 5, which would essentially end safe and legal abortion in the state of Texas. SB 5 is expressly designed to make safe and legal abortion impossible to access by forcing clinics to close. This bill requires doctors to have admitting privileges at hospitals, forces abortion providers to monitor non-surgical abortions, limits abortions to surgical centers, and criminalizes abortions performed after the 20th week, (similar to an Arkansas ban on abortions after 20 weeks that was recently struck down and ruled unconstitutional by a federal Appeals court). While Republican lawmakers attempt to use criminal abortion provider Kermit Gosnell to smear safe and legal abortion, they ignore the fact that by closing 37 of the 42 abortion clinics in the state of Texas, they are essentially sentencing women to dangerous illegal abortions and sending women straight to illegal abortion providers like Gosnell.

Clearly, this bill has frightening implications for women in Texas, but more revelatory is the fact that it is incredibly unpopular with Texas voters. According to ThinkProgress, 80% of Texans do not want their lawmakers considering this bill in a special session, and 63% of Texans think the state already has enough anti-abortion laws on the books. Texas Governor Rick Perry knows how unpopular this bill is, and hoping to steamroll past outrage from his constituents, he has used the special session, designed for legislative emergencies, to ram through this unpopular and unconstitutional bill which failed in the 83rd Texas legislature’s regular session. But Governor Perry underestimated the power of pro-choice activists in his own state.

Beginning on Thursday night and well into the early hours of Friday morning, hundreds of abortion rights supporters gathered in the capital to testify against SB 5, calling it a “people’s filibuster.” Activist and journalist Jessica Luther estimated that around 600 Texans showed up to filibuster the House version of the anti-choice bill. While every citizen was supposed to be allotted three minutes to testify, Luther noted that testimony was abruptly cut off around 1am, with Representative Cook claiming testimony became “repetitive.”


The GOP is bound and determined to restrict abortion and resist immigration reform, and I think they will find it costly to ignore public opinion and run rough-shod over those who do not share their views.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5356

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And then polling--which can be spun both ways, but perhaps a more nuanced look is appropriate: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/25/as-texas-considers-new-abortion-restrictions-polls-show-complex-debate/
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1000

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
It amazes me that when it is pointed out that someone has said something offensive, their immediate response is that you are too sensitive. Part of that dismissive behavior--the larger message is that your feelings are not valid.
I asked you a question. In your own words....
mac wrote:
I guess you could have said no


mac wrote:
The assumptions embedded in describing someone else's behavior as "promiscuous" are at the heart of the insensitivity and misogyny of the "question."
If you say so. So are you saying there is not way of defining the term, or is it for each person to determine for themselves?

mac wrote:
It posits the likelihood that the answer is yes, and it defines promiscuity as a problem with women, not with men.
Absolutely problem is shared by men.


mac wrote:
Most of the rest of your questions are loaded
Loaded, uncomfortable to answer, or open for debate? If you feel so strongly then why fear to answer? I ask myself questions all day long. They help me to change and grow. I might even mentally debate your answers if you were to answer them.


mac wrote:
and answered largely in law--look above for the specific citation of the Roe v. Wade decision.
Do laws makes things acceptable, rational and moral?

mac wrote:
Perhaps mrgybe can give you a reference.
Is this meant as some sort of shot at Mr. Gybe?

mac wrote:
But then I know--I adopted.
Thank you for doing so, and I commend you for doing so.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2703

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
I know someone who might want this on his Christmas present list.........

Beyond Anger: A Guide for Men: How to Free Yourself from the Grip of Anger and Get More Out of Life by Thomas Harbin

Oh wait..........Christmas isn't inclusive enough......he'll be offended...... I meant his Holiday present list. Whew. That was close!

No, no... not to worry. Mikey believes in Christmas.

But he'll shoot you if you claim not.
.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1000

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
their immediate response is that you are too sensitive. Part of that dismissive behavior--the larger message is that your feelings are not valid.

What would be the intent of refering to others as "knuckle draggers" who do not share in your opinions? I'm confused. Is one better than the other?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5356

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the numbers:

question are you saying there is not way of defining the term (promiscuous) , or is it for each person to determine for themselves?

Answer: In common usage, the term promiscuous is reserved for women, and conveys loose morals. The way the question is posed assumes that there has been a change in sexual practices--which is not entirely clear--and that sexual behavior can be proscribed by absolute moral terms, rather than in the context of a culture. It is for those reasons that I consider the question insensitive--if there is something that you are trying to get at, try phrasing it in a different, more neutral manner.

question: Do laws makes things acceptable, rational and moral?

answer: laws, and the finality of an arbiter such as the Supreme Court are the glue that bind us together as a society. I disagree with the Supreme Court's decision on counting votes in Florida in the 2000 election and in the recent Civil Rights act case--I believe that both were nakedly partisan, and favored Republican election results. I also disagree with Citizens United and the Philadelphia gun case. But that is the legal system, and I accept the finality of those decisions. To do otherwise--as evangelicals have with Roe v;. Wade is profoundly radical, and thus carries its own moral dilemmas.

question: If the female should decide to terminate the pregnancy should the male be able to block that decision legally?

answer: No. The balance of power, and the burdens of pregnancy, are different between the male and females involved in conception. I learned this in discussions with wise women that I loved deeply when I was still in my twenties. If a man is opposed to abortion on moral grounds, as I am and was then, his only power is in acting responsibly in his sexuality.

question: What leaves greater emotional scars, the termination of a pregnancy or being poor?

answer: This question poses a false choice, and says more about you, and your desire to impose your own views, than does it represent a real inquiry. It is, like many of these questions, sort of "so have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of reasoning.

Poverty affects most people, regardless of their value or religious system--in ways they understand and in ways that are invisible. Children of poor families come to pre-school or kindergarten with one third the vocabulary of middle class children, and the vast majority of them never catch up. But many are happy because happiness is found in emotional relationships, not in material things. In contrast, some women regret having an abortion, many do not. This line of reasoning, from the evangelical right, is rooted in anecdotal evidence. Somehow I don't think that the woman who has had eight abortions, mentioned above, is scarred by that. But if you actually have any evidence that is systematic and not anecdotal, I would be willing to look at it.

By the way, my wife gave up a child to adoption when her first husband abandoned her. She was Catholic and never considered abortion. It scarred her. We know the mother of our older daughter, who arranged a private adoption with us, very well. She made the best of a bad situation, and we are grateful that she didn't have an abortion. That doesn't give me the right to force either adoption or carrying a child to term, or abortion, on a woman. Or to judge why or how she became pregnant.

question: If a "Christian" couple should wish to adopt a child should they be denied this because their views of homosexuality are based upon their biblical beliefs?

answer: I suspect you know the answer to this one, which is why my response was snide. In America there is both religious freedom and separation of church and state, and nobody can use your religion, or lack of religion, as criteria for your suitability to adopt a child or run for office. At the same time, there are limitations on the ability of someone holding religious views to impose those views on others with different views.

question: Perhaps mrgybe can give you a reference.
Is this meant as some sort of shot at Mr. Gybe?

answer. Yes. Mrgybe responded to the facts of poverty and unadopted children in Texas that I posted with a statement that he supports a number of groups that are taking care of the problems. With thousands of kids in foster care, and over 6 million in poverty in Texas while the same legislature cuts programs for education and poverty, his claim is clearly not true. It is another example of magical thinking--where laudable charitable giving through ones church solves all social problems and there is no need for government program. As usual, mrgybe provided no details about his magical solutions--information is made available on a need to know basis. The realistic, non-snide answer is given above.

You have no legitimate interest in the basis of my moral code--nor I in yours.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1000

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited into one message

Last edited by reinerehlers on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1000

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited into one message

Last edited by reinerehlers on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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