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1st and 2nd Amendments under attack
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13834

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maxdownhaul wrote:
I can't help but think if we had the old gun laws then the intruders would have been more heavily armed and if the occupants shot back with their self defence weapons there would have been deaths involved.

If the dead people were the intruders, we call that DRT ... Dead Right There. That's a GOOD thing, lest they continue until they kill some homeowner.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 875

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

If a guy in a bar, for example, gets in yer face too much, you start swinging, and he pulls a concealed gun and kills you, he's guilty, according to many gun law textbooks and police lawyers and the training I got for concealed carry in ~40 states.


Cool, but you're still dead, so who really cares who's guilty? You're still dead and it's his word against your, well, dead words....but then you're still dead. Why? Because of the gun and the fact still is that a lack of guns equals a lack of shootings.

I've been windsurfing in Lake Ontario for some 20 years now, and you know why I've never been attacked by a shark? Yup, you guessed it, because I have a pet shark that I've trained to swim beside me while I'm out sailing. That's right damn it, and it's my constitutional right to have a pet shark!


Last edited by reinerehlers on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:05 am; edited 3 times in total
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maxdownhaul



Joined: 04 Aug 2011
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your input isobars. However, here is a tip for when you would like your side of an issue to be the one with the most logical argument. Sh. Don't say anything.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 875

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
maxdownhaul wrote:
I can't help but think if we had the old gun laws then the intruders would have been more heavily armed and if the occupants shot back with their self defence weapons there would have been deaths involved.

If the dead people were the intruders, we call that DRT ... Dead Right There. That's a GOOD thing, lest they continue until they kill some homeowner.

That is what you would call the "perfect" scenario. In reality how many times do things work out perfectly? You can train until your blue in the face and then its still a fluke if it works out perfectly. A friend of mine was on the SWAT for Durham region and those were his same words too. He said as soon as they breach a door to enter it is the element of surprise and training that is their advantage, but it can all turn into a nightmare in a second. He was released from the SWAT after he accidentally had his firearm discharge, and that after all his training.

In my twenties I lived with a friend who while on one hand was the most giving and helpful person was also a very violent person. Being raised by alcoholics will do that I guess. I watched my friend beat the snot out of a second level black belt in a night club. He was way smaller, not trained, but crazy as they come when it came time to throw down. This was not an isolated incident either. He did such things on numerous occasions and was never charged. His advantage, he went phsyco when he was angry. You really want to battle it out with gun or not with such a person? Do you really want to go engaging with such a person because you "think" you have an advantage because you carry?

I can't help but think that your guns are really just a totally false sense of security. I also can't get over the fear that you seem to live in. I don't know about you but I don't walk around in fear of being attacked, and I'm not usually one to avoid confrontation when it comes my way. I've always figured if I go somewhere that is sketchy then I shut my mouth and mind my own business and I'm good 99 percent of the time. I can't see the need for a gun for that 1 percent, and even with training its likelihood of being effective or the chance of it being used against me....I just don't see it.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13834

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So now I'm not only angry, but fearful? (It's logic and pragmatism, guys, not fear. $#!+ happens, $#!+ HAS happened, and I believe in being prepared for $#!+. It has paid off before, and may do so again.) I WANT to engage your whacked-out friend because I'm armed? You guys are fabricating WAY too much about my life. You don't carry; I don't carry. You don't want to "engage with" your violent friend, I don't want to engage with him.

Where we differ in this regard is that you'd fight your violent friend with your fists, while I wouldn't. If I couldn't outrun him, I'd find a superior weapon of some sort to protect myself from grave bodily harm. You don't avoid physical confrontation, whereas I do. Even if the only injury in a fight were the finger I broke while breaking his jaw in 6 places, I'd consider it a loss because of the hassles of that broken finger. A fight is a complete victory only to the party who walks away unscathed AND was the victim, IMO.

Your angry friend was never charged for the same reason Benito was not charged after chasing down and deliberately ramming a WSer head on: the victims did not file a complaint (or your friend was always the victim of the attacks.)

I don't care whether "my side" has the logical arguments; I'm just regurgitating laws and relating my own opinions, mostly as direct answers to you guys' questions and assumptions. The only "fight" I care about "winning" in this issue is the one where my physical well-being is at stake, and the primary reason this dialogue is still continuing is that you two haven't yet called anyone a lying racist. I'm also trying to correct several gross misunderstandings about our gun laws.

Another reason is that I find it fascinating that some people are so afraid of guns, as though guns had minds of their own. Then there's the singular most important bottom line I've gleaned from all my training so far: The decision to carry or not is a totally personal choice based on many external and internal factors. I went into the training leaning towards packing in some scenarios. I came out leaning FAR in the other direction, since reinforced by Zimmerman's experience. That will change as I get older and frail, if my wife accompanies me into higher-risk scenarios, etc. At the moment I look more like a weight lifter than a straggler from the herd and -- not counting my temporary leg injury -- I can still run damned fast towards or away from a threat to my wife or myself. I'd rather run than fight any time, if it works. A bruised ego will not impact my WSing time or court time like a broken finger or shooting would.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 875

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So now I'm afraid of guns and I would engage in a fist fight with my friend? Right back at ya............

In high school I was in army cadets. I was the youngest cadet to earn cross rifle and crowns, competed on the rifle team, fired semi and fully automatic and large caliber on an open range. I competed in biathalon for the cadet corp too. So WRONG there! I quit cadets because I hated the glorification of violence and war that others portrayed....that and they changed ski night to the same night and I'd rather ski.

I wouldn't engage with a fist fight with my friend because I was smarter than that. Living together the situations sure arose, but I knew that look and also knew when to walk away. I'd say his victims were all pretty much deserving of a beating, but no doubt about it, he assaulted them. Didn't make it right either way. And at the same time I don't think killing him would have made anything better either. Don't worry, cancer killed him eventually, so you won't have to carry your gun if you come out my way.

I don't get the "lying racist" comment....what the heck are you talking about?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13834

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
So now I'm afraid of guns and I would engage in a fist fight with my friend? Right back at ya............

I wouldn't engage with a fist fight with my friend because I was smarter than that. Living together the situations sure arose, but I knew that look and also knew when to walk away. I'd say his victims were all pretty much deserving of a beating, but no doubt about it, he assaulted them. Didn't make it right either way. And at the same time I don't think killing him would have made anything better either. Don't worry, cancer killed him eventually, so you won't have to carry your gun if you come out my way.

I don't get the "lying racist" comment....what the heck are you talking about?

I'm talking about the two dozen children here whose stock argument (including both words and cartoons), the instant their logic and facts fail, consists of one or both of those false accusations, and often more.

Re "right back at ye ..." No fabrications there; your own words -- all I have to go on -- strongly imply both those conclusions. You said, "I'm not usually one to avoid confrontation", and many of your comments implied a fear of guns, religious prohibition from using them, unwillingness to use them for self defense, and much more.

About "his victims were all pretty much deserving of a beating, but no doubt about it, he assaulted them. Didn't make it right either way. And at the same time I don't think killing him would have made anything better either."
If his beatings had been in self defense, or if he had gotten beaten or killed by someone in their own legitimate and necessary self defense, then that does "make it right" in the eyes of the law (and in mine)."
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5694

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars is a character who repeatedly creates his own problems, but in the end it's never his fault. He's a serial trouble maker that always blames the other guy. On top of that, he loves to play the victim. All you have to do is watch him for a while, and the stark truth always becomes very clear.
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coyotewindsurf



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 1268
Location: SF Bay

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"There's somethin' happenin' here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun, over there
Tellin' me I got to beware

(I think it's time we)
Stop, children, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?

There's battle lines bein' drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speakin' their minds
Gettin' so much resistance from behind

(It's time we)
Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?

What a field day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singin' songs and carryin' signs
Mostly sayin', "hooray for our side"

(It's time we)
Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man come and take you away


(We better)
Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?
(We better)
Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?
(We better)
Stop, now, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?
(We better)
Stop, children, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?"

~Stephen Stills

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mo
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2583

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
isobars is a character who repeatedly creates his own problems, but in the end it's never his fault. He's a serial trouble maker that always blames the other guy. On top of that, he loves to play the victim. All you have to do is watch him for a while, and the stark truth always becomes very clear.

And collects government disability checks while windsurfing and motorcycle racing, and all the while sniveling and whining about others who get "freebees" in the form of government handouts.

Look up "hypocrisy" in the dictionary to find a picture of Mr. Fick.

Mr. Fick-shun sure is a funny guy!
.
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