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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| maxdownhaul wrote: | | Why are semi & fully automatic weapons needed? |
That right there sums up the primary difference between a free society and a nanny state: It's not about need; it's about want.
It's much like the difference between California and most other U.S. states. A California state cop once told me I couldn't pull off the highway and eat my own damned sandwich simply because there was no sign saying I could. In a free state, we can do any damned thing we want if a) there's no law against it and b) it doesn't harm anyone else. That's the basis of our very Constitution, and it's a big part of why I live here (and don't visit California). |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5181
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| maxdownhaul wrote: | | As I have never been to America my knowledge of the US is limited to hearsay and from what TV & movies have taught me. Maybe America is more messed up than I realize. |
Max, The US you generally see on TV or the movies or in the press, is not the country most of us here live in. I host a lot of friends visiting from overseas, including from Australia and Canada. Almost all who have never been here before comment that they are surprised how different it is from their expectations.....and many are shocked that we routinely leave doors and windows open when going out. They almost all want come back again! Most people who own weapons don't do so because they are in fear of assault. They own them for recreation.........to hunt or to shoot at a range. I own a rifle and a handgun simply because there are nice ranges near a couple of the places we own and it's fun to shoot targets with my sons. I would never walk around with a concealed weapon, although I'm licensed to do so.
The US is a great country filled with kind and generous people and magnificent natural beauty..........same as Australia and Canada, counties I know well and would happily live in. All have inevitable warts......some of them serious......but they do not define the country or the vast majority of it's people. The news media and Hollywood cannot be relied upon for a balanced depiction.........neither can vitriolic comments from resentful neighbors.......too many are agenda driven. Get on a plane a judge for yourself. But it might be wise to wait for a few days in case you get called up to play at Old Trafford! BTW, in the years I lived in England, I played village cricket and batted No 11.........I always knew those openers were crap. |
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KGB-NP
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:15 am Post subject: |
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mrgybe,
I agree with what you wrote. I'd live in the Gorge in a heart beat. I've been around a fair bit of the US and there is a whole lot of places you couldn't pay me to live in.
Coboard,
I stand corrected. I was messing with a bit at the same time.
Isobars,
I take it then that you felt that your assault vicitm had the right to shoot you, or any other person you should assault in the future.
I think you guys may have convinced me on the whole "gun thing". I may have a twist on this thing though. I say we make windsurfing interesting in a whole new way. Let's spice things up by mounting automatic paint ball guns on our booms with a trigger on each side of the boom. It could be like windsurfing dog fights. Now THAT would be freaking cool! |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| reinerehlers wrote: | Isobars,
I take it then that you felt that your assault vicitm had the right to shoot you, or any other person you should assault in the future. |
Actually, no. In every case the other party initiated the conflict, and if the armed party initiated it and then uses his weapon, he is guilty even if his weapon was concealed when he "started the fight". And that initiation doesn't even have to be a "first punch"; it can be verbal. If a guy in a bar, for example, gets in yer face too much, you start swinging, and he pulls a concealed gun and kills you, he's guilty, according to many gun law textbooks and police lawyers and the training I got for concealed carry in ~40 states.
And neither I, the law, nor most impartial juries consider anyone against whom I must take action to stop ongoing and/or repeated grave assault to be a "victim". He is a criminal assailant who must be stopped by any means necessary to prevent the death or grave bodily harm of someone in my family (are you paying attention, Benito?). Whether that apples to others outside my family is my call, legally and morally, but my training, my circumstances, and my environment limit that level of involvement to protection of my family. I'd think 10 times before using a weapon to defend even an unknown child under attack, simply because of the years of criminal and/or civil legal battles that almost always follow even clear-cut cases of justifiable defense. Some of my SWAT trainers have been sued by (the families of) violent ratbags they had to shoot on duty, leading to months of legal battles covering years of calendar time. Sorry, young lady, but I'm not risking years of that (or conviction by a bleeding heart jury) just to save your baby from a violent attack; you can carry your own damned gun and fight your own damned battles.
That's one of many reasons I don't carry ... yet. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17751
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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From what I hear, about about Iso's size, a reasonably big guy. I also pioneered a "rough"area of Berkeley, put both of my kids through public schools where I now volunteer. I've broken up two muggings and my wife is head of neighborhood watch. I've never felt a need for a gun for protection--my dad paid attention to statistics and pointed out that you are more likely to be assaulted by your own weapon. A medium length club and a loud voice has sent muggers--always in teams of two--running.
If Zimmerman hadn't been carrying, he'd have stayed in the car like the dispatcher told him, Martin would be alive, and Zimmerman would be a lot better off. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Without rehashing the entire gun control debate...I do not believe one can decide for others if they need a gun for personal protection. Folks have different skills, physical abilities and risks. A big guy from Berkeley may not need a gun. A small woman, who deals with dangerous clients, might.
If gun owners were required to take safety and defense training to own a firearm, I believe there would be less likelihood of that gun harming its owner. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | Without rehashing the entire gun control debate...I do not believe one can decide for others if they need a gun for personal protection. Folks have different skills, physical abilities and risks. A big guy from Berkeley may not need a gun. A small woman, who deals with dangerous clients, might. |
My trainers drilled the personal choice issue into us repeatedly. However, they also emphasized a huge factor: serious muggers, from bangers to pros, spend a huge amount of time in their back rooms and jail cells discussing, planning, and practicing methods of overwhelming their victims instantly. A wrestler, boxer, martial artist etc. whose jaw is broken or kidney crushed before he even knows he's in a fight is still in deep doo doo ... and that's with just one experienced opponent. My trainers, all full time senior SWAT officers, say the force and sheer number of bullets required to stop a big guy on meth is astounding.
A BIG, beefy, ex-college fullback coworker of about 30 moved from LA to small-town Utah as soon as he and his wife were ambulatory again after a long hospital stay; they never physically or mentally recovered from the bone-crushing beat-down they got just for breathing and carrying a wallet. If I lived in any city and was ever out at night in today's society, I'd carry in a heartbeat even if I were 40 years younger. The odds of an attack may be low, but the penalty for not having a gun when you really need one are immense. I got very lucky the 3-4 times I or my wife have been attacked; at my present age (not even counting my busted knee), I'd need more than fast feet or an imposing physique to deter or stop an attack. |
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maxdownhaul
Joined: 04 Aug 2011
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Coboardhead ,Mrgybe & Mac for rational replies. Even though I haven't met any of you, you sound like you would be responsible with guns, unlike a small percentage of others that have the same access as you do. I lived in a society with an overload of guns, maybe I would jump on the band wagon as well, I don't know.
Yesterday there was in incident on a rural property about 90 kms from where I live. According to the media ,a minority couple committed a home invasion and shot an 82 year old man (non life threatening), then stole their car. I can't help but think if we had the old gun laws then the intruders would have been more heavily armed and if the occupants shot back with their self defence weapons there would have been deaths involved. Anyway, each country to their own.
Coboardhead I don't know the legalities of automatic weapon over there, and my position is still that weapons like this definitely should not be in the hand of civilians, if I ever did visit the US, I would try to get to this shoot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uCppmoZiXUY
Mrgybe My cricket skills are so woeful that the best position for me in the game is as a spectator and even then I would be one of the last to be picked. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Max...I mis-stated the law regarding fully automatic firearms. You cannot purchase one that has been manufactured after 1986. And, to own one requires special permitting and taxes. I believe some states may ban them.
Tourist shooting these at special events has become a novelty and is expensive. A friend of mine paid 100 bucks to shoot a bowling ball with a "machine gun".
Not being the stereotypical gun nut...I'd rather spend the money on sushi! |
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maxdownhaul
Joined: 04 Aug 2011
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah it is expensive, although if I spent the money going over there I would find a couple of hundred to become a gun nut for an hour or so. As it is I don't have enough money to upgrade my WS gear so it ain't happening. |
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