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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2632

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikey wrote:
... as long as he doesn't come running home at every paper cut.

Not a problem.

He can receive government disability handouts for that and still race his motorcycle, right?
.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4048

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that women are going to have "the right" to fight on the front lines, and they have called this an equal rights issue, WHY DON'T WE REQUIRE THEM TO REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT?

I am all for this. It is about time. Next time we have a Vietnam or Iraq, the howling from them will be never ending. I actually think the decision is stupid, however if you are going to site "equlity" then go all the way.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1930
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Now that women are going to have "the right" to fight on the front lines, and they have called this an equal rights issue, WHY DON'T WE REQUIRE THEM TO REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT?

I am all for this. It is about time. Next time we have a Vietnam or Iraq, the howling from them will be never ending. I actually think the decision is stupid, however if you are going to site "equlity" then go all the way.


That's a very interesting question. I suspect the details of the change will see modification by each service before the 2016 enaction.

When the US Supreme court reviewed earlier claims of gender discrimination, it often discussed the methodology of skill and ability testing. A decisive case examined whether extremely high physical testing scores truly tested minimum performance requirements of firefighting or served only as a pretext for continued gender discrimination. The court took great pains to consider the expert testimony consisting of firefighting trainers as well as experienced fire captains and firefighters as well. The Court observed that many decorated firefighters either never passed the same test nor could perform particular achievement metrics in the entry test yet continued to be hired and promoted. The Court concluded that the tests served as a pretext for gender discrimination and it went on to say that preconceived notions of women's physical abilities motivated the creation of a test designed to keep women out.

Romantic ideas of women aside, the effort to create training and tests to open doors for women should address any objective measure of gender differences as it applies to military service.

Will draft registration occur? Do I wish my daughter safe from combat? Yes, but no more or less than I feel about my son. Thus, if he must be subject to the call of our government than so should my daughter. I pray neither kid experiences that.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14037

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Now that women are going to have "the right" to fight on the front lines, and they have called this an equal rights issue, WHY DON'T WE REQUIRE THEM TO REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT?

I am all for this. It is about time. Next time we have a Vietnam or Iraq, the howling from them will be never ending. I actually think the decision is stupid, however if you are going to site "equlity" then go all the way.


It's being discussed as we type. But I have to chuckle at the government's denial that women have been prohibited from combat on and beyond the front lines. One quite credible Green Beret told me she spent years in places, even countries, we still deny even being in, including Laos 40 years ago.

That doesn't bother me in the least. No way in hell should even the loose-lipped Congress, let alone the un- and misinformed public, have need-to-know access to everything the government does. Too many lives are at stake for second-guessing by such idiots. Not long after dozens of high-energy laser weapons researchers were briefed into a beyond-top-secret Star Wars technology, the SDI office gave most of us another briefing on the same technology. It was very short and succinct: "Remember that briefing we gave you about "XXXX"? Forget about it. That briefing never took place." (I can only presume it had applications far beyond its initial intent, because it most definitely achieved those goals.)

And to think the media, let alone the public, thinks it knows all about that program! Even within my own relatively microscopic exposure to military technologies, I've witnessed MANY absolutely laughable assessments by the national and global media, right up to and including the very heads of ABC, NBC. CBS, and the BBC on stage on PBS. Given the dozens of weapons systems and technologies from nanoparticles to malware to large ships that were under advanced research or even fully functional for years, maybe even decades, before their existence was even suspected, let even known, by investigative reporters, would it be any surprise that our men and women combat roles are not as we think?
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1930
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Misdirection asks us to admit the obvious, namely that women have been serving in high danger and/or combat areas for years.

With that bombshell out of the way, the real issue is one of gender discrimination in the military workplace. While I'm no expert on advancing through the ranks, it seems clear that being officially recognized as having served in a combat role is a very positive and valuable notation on on'e military career. Despite serving in combat roles, the Pentagon has refused to acknowledge that status and, thereby, created a disparate ranking system depending only on gender. This is patently illegal in the civilian world and worthy of all sorts of criticism in the military.

I think its high time for the military to call things as they are. Combat is combat, no matter who is behind the trigger. All the stupid defenses are being dragged out of the gutter by those who oppose this change: unit cohesion, lack of individual readiness as a group, lack of individual physical ability as a group and, my favorite, women and men sharing a foxhole will cause sexual harassment.

That last one blows the mind by blaming the victim for the bad actions of the wrongdoer.

Unit cohesion is important but simply is not apart from a shared mission and goal and respect for leadership. All that makes the unit, and training and leadership together create the cohesion "even if" people of different shade, religion, nationality, ethnicity, sexual preference or gender serve together.

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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2607

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
Despite serving in combat roles, the Pentagon has refused to acknowledge that status and, thereby, created a disparate ranking system depending only on gender.

Consider what direct ground combat actually means. The DOD definition..........

“…engaging the enemy on the ground with individual or crew served weapons, while being exposed to hostile fire and to a high probability of direct physical contact with the hostile force’s personnel. [It] takes place well forward on the battlefield while locating and closing with the enemy to defeat them by fire, maneuver, or shock effect.” (emphasis added)

Women have not served in that role in the US military.....there may be covert exceptions. We should pause before sending our women to be killed or captured on the front lines in a bizarre pursuit of equality. Does that make us a more civilized society?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5122

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is reasonable--as far as it goes. But there is a much larger context:

Quote:
We should pause before sending our women to be killed or captured on the front lines in a bizarre pursuit of equality. Does that make us a more civilized society?


The two factors that make this analysis incomplete is the command structure of the armed forces, and the culture that seems to support discrimination against women, up to and including rape. To the first, the command structure is disproportionately populated by those who have served in combat, which creates an automatic bias against women in command. On the second point, if you don't understand that rape and sexual abuse is far to common in the military, you aren't paying attention.

Having more women in command positions will help with these problems. If that requires having more women in combat, then we might want to think about what makes our society more equal, in fact.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1930
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm incredulous. No women in combat but for exceptions?

Women serve in combat units and fight alongside their male comrades and have done so for the past ten years. For example, Army Spc. Monica Lin Brown received a Silver Star for her work as a medic in the 4th Squadron, 73rd Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team. She saved 5 of her fellow soldiers by running through enemy fire to attend to them.



Few in combat? I think not. Moreover, as we know, there is no front line in Afghanistan. The US fights a war of insurgency, unlike anything resembling a formal battle front.

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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3511
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guns in that picture look exactly like the ones I grabbed at Cabela's on the way home from work yesterday.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2607

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
I'm incredulous. No women in combat but for exceptions? Women serve in combat units and fight alongside their male comrades and have done so for the past ten years.

Then why is any policy change needed? Do you know something the CJCS doesn't? Is he wrong when he says the policy change will strengthen the military, when your data suggests it merely preserves the status quo?

"Rescinding the policy that has excluded women since 1994 from serving in direct ground combat positions will strengthen the military, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said here today." Jan 24,2013.

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=119100
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