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Gun Nuts
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4060

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iso, it seems like you are living the Wyatt Earp lifestyle. Round chambered ready for someone to choose you off in the bar? High noon at the OK Corral? I know a guy who walked around with a loaded, chambered weapon in his pocket. It went off when he was walking with his girlfriend and it wounded her. Funny story because it almost blew off his manhood.... Laughing
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2642

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikey wrote:

How does one define a "chambered round" in a revolver?

Who cares how it's defined? It's "ready to shoot a bullet into somebody's head." That's chambered enough.


Mikey wrote:

If you're being assaulted, that extra time can easily get you killed.

No.

It's the gun that kills, not that extra time.



Mr. B. wrote:
Funny story because it almost blew off his manhood....

He was nuts. Wink
.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14053

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I don't go to bars. No problem there.

Next, I don't carry; give me a few more years and a limp, or move me to a city, or put me on the streets after dark, and I might.

Third, people who do carry are fools if their weapon CAN "go off" accidentally. Choosing and using weapons and holsters that virtually, almost literally, eliminate that possibility are integral to the process of carrying. They're easy to find these days.

Fourth, one's finger must never enter the trigger guard until he is deliberately firing at a person he must stop for self-preservation.

In the second or two it would take an amateur to jack a round into his pistol chamber (or a cop to draw his chambered pistol and put two rounds into an assailant's center of mass), that assailant can cover at least 20 feet. Even if he's armed only with a knife, your wife is dead. The only scenario which justifies a civilian's drawing in self-defense is an imminent severe threat; that justifies having every possible advantage, including a chambered round. Any gun which decreases, rather than increases, both the carrier's and the public's safety, is not a gun I'd want to carry.

If the police didn't agree with all that, they wouldn't be so strongly educating, motivating, and encouraging responsible citizens to arm themselves and carry.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5776

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars argues that a concealed gun owner needs to have the right to keep a bullet in the chamber to protect themselves and others. He stresses that the time required to put a bullet in the chamber would severely limit the gun owner's readiness and expose them to calamity. Now this is the same guy that claims that banning high capacity magazines wouldn't be a problem for a killer because they could discard and reload another magazine in the blink of an eye. It's all a bunch of gun nut nonsense cobbled together to fool the ignorant. Simply nothing more than specious BS promoting the NRA's "no limits" agenda.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2642

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
It's all a bunch of gun nut nonsense cobbled together to fool the ignorant.

He's successfully fooling himself.
.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4060

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"In the second or two it would take an amateur to jack a round into his pistol chamber (or a cop to draw his chambered pistol and put two rounds into an assailant's center of mass), that assailant can cover at least 20 feet."

Dude, while you're fumbling around with your pistol, I'm running away as fast as I can. This equation is a no loose for me. Either you are dead, or the guy with the knife is dead... Laughing
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14053

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Dude, while you're fumbling around with your pistol, I'm running away as fast as I can.

That's because you are not a hardened criminal intent on mugging, killing, or raping the person with the gun. The experienced, drugged out, crazy, or determined assailant -- the only ones we can draw on outside our "castle" -- will rush the victim if he sees ANY hesitation, ineptness, weaknesses, etc. This particular cheetah has already picked the lame water buffalo out of the herd, and some day that may be you or me. If that particular criminal gets within 30 feet of his obviously armed but obviously unprepared victim and is still coming, his target had better already be chambered, aimed, and pulling the trigger, 'cause he's fast running out of breathing time if that's the attacker's purpose.

These aren't my numbers. They are from data extracted from man-centuries of police research, as presented in many books and countless courses.

Is the threat real? Of course. Is it numerically high? Of course not, in most environments. But if you're the one whose wife or child is being attacked violently, the threat just went to DEFCON 5, the odds just went to 1.0, the risks to your self or family just went off the chart, and you'll never forget that moment whether you live 5 more seconds or 50 more years. And despite your 6'7", your 180 pounds isn't going to save the day with a criminal that determined to put you out of commission.

Even though I've almost always lived in nice small towns, don't go to bars or ball games, don't walk city streets at night, and don't pick up hitchhikers, I could rattle off a long list of fatal and near-fatal assaults or rapes or burglaries among friends, neighbors, and/or close-to-home news stories. Our gun training experts consider the concealed carry decision extremely personal because the decision factors run into the dozens. One very experienced trainer, known nationally in state and federal police circles, explained his off-duty carry choice this way: Alone, he carries a small, concealed .38 Special popgun in case an assailant manages to chase him down from behind. If his family is along, he's heavily armed and mentally and physically equipped to stand his ground and take a lot of assailants down with him in defense of his family.

You can bet yer sweet ass every weapon he carries has a round chambered and many more rounds one trigger-pull behind it. Some day his life may depend on it.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1162
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Iso, it seems like you are living the Wyatt Earp lifestyle. Round chambered ready for someone to choose you off in the bar? High noon at the OK Corral? I know a guy who walked around with a loaded, chambered weapon in his pocket. It went off when he was walking with his girlfriend and it wounded her. Funny story because it almost blew off his manhood.... Laughing


Steven, I'm not just talking to you, I just quoted you Smile

It always amazes me when people with no or little gun knowledge get involved in gun conversations. Almost like a kiter talking about windsurfing. Rolling Eyes

Lets talk about this LOGICALLY.

A gun that can't fire is useless. Plain and simple. This is why some people like revolvers. You pull the trigger, it fires. Unless it is empty.

This entire BS about an empty chamber comes from people who don't even understand guns. Unfortunately THIS came from the military. Back when the US changed from a revolver to a Colt .45 semi-auto handgun the military was concerned about misfires. Also back then (prior to the Model 70) the gun had less safeties. The gun was carried 'cocked and locked" with the hammer locked in the fire position with a safety blocking the hammer. This made the military scared so they carried it with no round in the chamber and the hammer in the forward position (not a safe way IF a round was in the chamber). The gun wasn't really ready to fire, but it was mostly carried by MP's back then. Since then the gun has had numerous safeties added so the PROPER way to carry this gun is "cocked and locked". But that scares non-gun people since they see the hammer back, but don't have any understanding of the weapon. This was my off-duty gun back in the early 80's so I was very familiar with it.

Since then the semi-auto handgun has been refined and now fires the first round "double action", and any subsequent round "single action". So the first shot is JUST like a revolver, a 12 pound or so trigger pull compared to the 4 - 5 pound single action trigger pull. So unless your finger is on the trigger and pulling the trigger it just won't go off. (this applies to most semi-auto handguns, there are exceptions such as the Glock).

So why is there ANY need to have it in a non-fire able condition??? Trust me if you EVER have to fire a gun at somebody the last thing you want to worry about is whether it is actually ready to fire. Years ago departments required their officers to have the safeties on and then "thumb them off" when drawing the weapon. There were officers shot and killed because their guns would not fire (not making this up, this is documented) because they either missed the safety with their thumb or in the moment, forgot. Smith and Wesson was one of the guns with a safety (this was in the 90's, so I don't know if current models still have one).

That is one of the beauties of the Sig Sauer. You pull the trigger it fires, every time. No confusion. AFTER the shooting is done, then you use the "decocking lever" to lower the hammer safely.

As to magazine count. The Colt 45 carried 8+1 and was considered enough years ago. However current trends have made most departments want more. Our weapon was a .40 cal and carried 12+1. My personal is a 9mm and it carries 15+1 but has less stopping power than the other two weapons. A lot of this is personal choice and gun nuts can argue over proper caliber selection for hours.

BUT I think the 15 mag is a joke. The AR-15 comes stock with 20 round mags. They should have just gone with this number for centerfire weapons since it was the industry standard until people started going nuts with the 30 round mags. As far as rimfire weapons, I really think any magazine talk is a joke since we are talking about .22 rifles.

Okay back off the soapbox. By the way, even though I own two firearms, and I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable (shot .22 rifle completion as a kid, military type rifle competition as a police officer, was a shotgun/handgun instructor at the PD and I was a certified MP-5 submachinegun instructor) I in no way consider myself a "gun nut". I haven't even fired a gun in over 2 1/2 years....


Last edited by johnl on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1162
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, Hollywood doesn't help this issue. I crack up constantly when watching police/military shows and watch them "rack a round" before going in a building or something. NO police officer carries their gun in a condition that won't fire.

Gunfights are over in seconds (I think 8 seconds is the national average? But I'm rusty, and could be off) so do you really think you want to be worrying about getting your weapon ready to fire when you need it to fire now??
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4060

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the Democrats in NY. Do they think we are stupid?

They may or may not come to fruition,” Cuomo said.

Instead of the seven-bullet limit on gun magazines, the changes are expected to allow 10-bullet clips, which, sources said, can be used at shooting ranges. Gun owners would then be on the honor system to put only seven bullets in the clip.

“There is no such thing as a seven-bullet magazine. That doesn’t exist, so you really have no practical option,” Cuomo said on Wednesday.

Yeah, the guy is pissed at his wife, he'll just put 7 bullets in the mag....
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