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Gun Nuts
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14624

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slinky wrote:
I am new here ...

Then I ask again that your evaluation of me on what *I* type, not on what others claim I have typed. The correlation is virtually zero.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14624

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slinky wrote:
1. I have not heard one constructive comment from the pro gun people.

2. Their attitude seems to be do nothing

3. or arm everyone which would lead to more senseless killing.

4. The big problem which seems to be on the rise is not with criminals, but the mentally deranged being able to obtain guns.

5. More guns makes no sense.

6. We need to make it harder for these looneys to get their hands on a weapon.

1. Then you're not reading this forum or watching real news with an open mind. Many here and hundreds on the central and right media have offered many constructive comments.

2. Every mass shooting but one (Tuscon) has violated existing gun laws. New ones would have made no difference.

3. "Everyone" ... sure. But no one's advocating that, and violent crimes go down when concealed carry permits go up.

4. How will any proposed laws decrease that likelihood? Posting gun ownership names and addresses in Westchester preceded (probably enabled) increased gun thefts ... three safes-full in one case.

5. Statistically, it does.

6. Got any new ideas which are practical in a free society? I can't think of any I've heard yet. Banning AR-15s has already proved to achieve nothing. Certainly Coboardhead's "registration, training and increased background checks" make sense, but they're not exactly new, and registration -- like background checks on private purchases --- have significant flaws.

The greatest deterrent my research has so far revealed to personal, out-of-the-home carry is the high likelihood that even a shooting we consider fool-proof self defense will send us to prison; the scenarios leading to that are eye-poppingly spring-loaded towards conviction. That's wrong, but it's in the hands of zealous prosecutors and the juries NOT of our peers they will select.


Last edited by isobars on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5575

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting post CB. Part of the difference is explained by the use of the terms "gun deaths" by VPC and "gun murders" by the Wikipedia source, which seems credible. 2006 vs. 2004 dates. More than half of California's gun deaths are suicide, matching national trends.

The other interesting thing is the statistical groupings and the difference in overall homicide rates. Louisiana is a major outlier, with homicide rates much above the national average. Maryland and Mississippi are statistically higher than the next group, with Kentucky through California all having an overall murder rate of about 6.3 plus or minus 0.4. And then 18 states have a murder rate under 3.0. My guess is that it would take a very good multivariate analysis to tease out the combinations of poverty and crime that correlate significantly to the differences. Part of my point has been that the NRA has bullied the Federal government out of collecting data rigorously so we might better be able to identify causes--and solutions. I would expect that suicides and murders are very different statistical populations and have very different causes.,

Thanks for the post.
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slinky



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 433
Location: Old Saybrook Ct.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cobo, I am glad to see many of you are for registation and background checks. i have to admit i do not read all the posts in these threads. Call me a bit lazy if you will, but I only allow so much time for entertainment. My sincere appologies. I try to have an open mind, as I think everyone should make an effort to do so.I am not anti gun nor do I think the govt. should ban semi automatic weapons, but we have to do something. Maybe the question of a ban on assault weapons should be on the ballot in our next election. Let the people decide, not Obama. I also feel that families with children should be required to have a gun safe. Everyone I know that has guns and children in their home has one, but I am sure there are many that do not.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5575

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obama won't decide, it would take an act of Congress--as it did 15 years ago.
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FarLeft



Joined: 20 Dec 2012
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slinky wrote:
I am not anti gun nor do I think the govt. should ban semi automatic weapons, but we have to do something. Maybe the question of a ban on assault weapons should be on the ballot in our next election.


Are you suggesting banning assault style weapons but keeping semi-automatic weapons legal? You do realize they're the same thing. Or maybe a better question would be "can you list some differences between semi-automatic weapons and assault style weapons?" Also, try and rank their lethal differences in descending order.

I'll get you started... the color of "assault style weapons" is usually black.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14624

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slinky wrote:
1. we have to do something.

2. Maybe the question of a ban on assault weapons should be on the ballot in our next election. Let the people decide, not Obama.

1. Not without facts and valid rationale. Just as with AGW, knee-jerking doesn't cut it.

2. Bad idea, IMO. The public is too ill-informed to allow mob rule to make the choice. Just as one example, how many people here or elsewhere are aware of the link posted here to the 200 cases of violent crimes averted by armed citizens? Besides, Obama lacks the authority to override the gun- (and NRA)-loving Senate on this issue.
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capetonian



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 907
Location: Oahu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
slinky wrote:
1. I do however think that the average person bears too much of the tax burden and the wealthy not enough.

1. You've seen the IRS numbers; the wealthy already pay the vast majority of federal income taxes. Should the truly rich pay 150% of it, so even people making a few hundred thousand dollars are given "rebate" checks despite paying no taxes (aka unearned welfare)?


How did a tax argument end up on a gun control thread? Anyway, here goes.

The rich pay the largest absolute amount of tax because they have the largest absolute amount of income. Even if we had a flat 15% tax with no deductions allowed, the rich would still pay the largest absolute amount of tax.

Rather than arguing with each other, shouldn't both sides be pushing for tax reform. Close the loopholes, include all income and flatten the tax structure so we can generate the same tax revenue with lower maximum marginal rates. It has worked in other countries around the world, no reason why it can't work here.

When are we going to elect a politician with the balls to stand up and say to both the general electorate and the special interest lobbies "all your sacred cows are destroying this country"?
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slinky



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 433
Location: Old Saybrook Ct.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assault weapons are used by the millitary. they are machine guns. Semi automatic look the same but can only fire as fast as you can pull the trigger. A big difference. Or have I got it wrong? As far as I know automatic weapons can not be purchased by the general public. If they can be I would favor a ban. Personally I do not own a gun, nor do I feel I need one. I have family and friends that do however, and they keep their guns in a vault.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2036

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac...I posted my selective data to illustrate the point that unless we evaluate all the data that we can, we cannot begin to understand how to really fix the problem. I am frustrated that the NRA has chosen to thwart that process.

We do not really know WHY the statistics show that a high rate of gun ownership correlates with a high rate of gun death. I would like to see data that breaks down that statistic into categories based on race, financial status and education. As well as, the data on suicide rates for the same populations. Without that, I am not willing to jump to the conclusion that a gun jeopardizes the safety of a particular owner.
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