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Gun Nuts
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
Is that because they're so practiced in gun shot wounds or because it's dangerous. It depends how you spin it. I would say in a city like Chicago where gun deaths and injuries are so common a military med would be a great asset. Probably not much use in a city like Toronto where things are more sane and guns insanity is not part of the culture.
Part of what maintains our sanity is people not being forced into crime due to our socialized health care and wealth distribution....that and we're more chill. Great quote from "secret millionaire" today, " there's little to live for but plenty to die for when there's no hope."


Chill is right! Minnesota is cold too, with similar homicide rates to Canada's.

So, Minnesota (as of 2012 the year I picked to compare homicide rates) did not have socialized health care, is actually higher density population than Canada, and has higher hand gun ownership, yet has a similar murder rate. We have a problem with violence in some parts of the USA. But, I would not assume that either socialized medicine, or gun confiscation, are solutions.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
I would not assume that ... gun confiscation are solutions.

Of course not, especially given that U.S. crime fell 26% after gun carrying permits more than doubled.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Of course not, especially given that U.S. crime fell 26% after gun carrying permits more than doubled."


Where's the credible background and references for such statistics? Unfortunately, it's not provided. Is that any big surprise?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
I would abolish guns in the blink of an eye if I had my say.

Google that idea. You will find countless studies -- hundreds of pages of them showed up within one minute, but I'll spare you them -- clearly showing that from individual cities to entire giant nations, the opposite is usually true. Criminals fear armed citizens, even in Russia. Even dedicated life-long anti-gun zealots/activists/lawyers/criminologists have eaten crow and changed their minds upon seeing the data.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2807

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Fick-shun wrote:
reinerehlers wrote:
I would abolish guns in the blink of an eye if I had my say.

Google that idea. You will find countless studies -- hundreds of pages of them showed up within one minute, but I'll spare you them -- clearly showing that from individual cities to entire giant nations, the opposite is usually true. Criminals fear armed citizens, even in Russia. Even dedicated life-long anti-gun zealots/activists/lawyers/criminologists have eaten crow and changed their minds upon seeing the data.

Yes indeed, more wisdom from Mr. Fick-shun.

Australia restricted guns in approximately 1996:

"State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Firearms Agreement (NFA). Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms.

"Each firearm in Australia must be registered to the owner by serial number. Some states allow an owner to store or borrow another person's registered firearm of the same category."
(Source)

Note the HUGE increase in gun-related homicides coincident with the Australian gun regs.

In Australia, annual firearm homicides total

2011: 25
2010: 36
2009: 37
2008: 27
2007: 28
2006: 41
2005: 15
2004: 15
2003: 54
2002: 45
2001: 47
2000: 57
1999: 50
1998: 57
1997: 79
1996: 104
1995: 67
1994: 76
1993: 64
1992: 96
1991: 84
1990: 79
1989: 80
1988: 123

(Source -- click "Gun homicides")
.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to Minnesota....

In 1996 there were 3.6 homicides per 100,000
In 2012 there were 1.8 homicides per 100,000

Dropped 50% with no gun confiscation.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17736
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB--crime is down everywhere. It is correlated primarily with age cohorts, although gun advocates, gun control advocates, and police forces all try to take credit. Itt is also correlated with poverty. http://www.cjcj.org/uploads/cjcj/documents/Does_age.pdf

Found this great start:

Quote:
Does Age or Poverty Level Best Predict Criminal Arrest and Homicide Rates?
A Preliminary Investigation

Introduction

Teenagers are “temporary sociopaths, impulsive and immature” (Fox, in Zoglin, 1996: 52), making demographics a “highly predictable… important contributor” to crime (Fox & Piquero, 2003: 348, 354). “Adolescents, on average, engage in more reckless behavior than do individuals of other ages” and are “biologically driven” to risk-taking, including criminal offending (Steinberg, 2007: 56; National Research Council, 2006; Reyna & Rivers, 2008). Young age (usually ages 14-17 or 15-24) is the demographic
variable most cited by authorities today. “More male teenagers, more crime. Period,” Princeton politics professor and crime expert John DiIulio, Jr. believes (Easton, 1996: E7).


Of course this is social science literature, where they looked at data. And as we know, the fact, although interesting, are irrelevant (Einstein), and don't seem to have much bearing on most people's opinions.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly Mac

Gun control advocates like to quote statistics that show the extent of the "success" of gun control in Australia or Canada. When much of the success is due to the same trends.

I continue to have a problem with comparisons that are drawn between the US and other countries in either gun control or health care. The arguments are inconclusive. They are just numbers bantered about as I am doing. Unless we really dive into the complexities of the cultural causes of violence in some of our cities, simple attempts at solutions (ban the guns) may be meaningless and may have consequences.

What works in Canada or Australia may not work here!
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17736
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB--the other problem is that the middle won't hold. In many years of accomplishing things in the political arena, I found it was critical that people with different viewpoints accept the validity of other stakeholders. Without that you have, unfortunately, stasis.

In the case of gun control, there is no compelling evidence that smaller capacity magazines matter appreciably. Automatic weapons are the choice of some gangs, and while there is innocent carnage from the shots that miss, that would still happen with smaller magazines. It is hand guns that matter, that are used in most of the murders in this country. The middle consists of eliminating the gun show loophole, and better screening before you buy a handgun. Those aspects will reduce the availability of guns to angry people who kill their spouses, and the mentally disturbed, but will not stop it completely. But some see that as insufficient, and others as the start of confiscation. Thus, no middle politically, even with a vast majority of the American public favoring those two measures.

Then you get the nuts who decide the solution is more guns. That's the loony fringe I referred to when I started this thread.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14796
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
Exactly Mac

Gun control advocates like to quote statistics that show the extent of the "success" of gun control in Australia or Canada. When much of the success is due to the same trends.

I continue to have a problem with comparisons that are drawn between the US and other countries in either gun control or health care. The arguments are inconclusive. They are just numbers bantered about as I am doing. Unless we really dive into the complexities of the cultural causes of violence in some of our cities, simple attempts at solutions (ban the guns) may be meaningless and may have consequences.

What works in Canada or Australia may not work here!


ya look at Japan too. I am sure there are more.

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when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.
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