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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4336

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Chinese are at war with us already. We just don't know it yet. They are slowly massing a fortune. Building world class carriers and jets. Drones. Cyber capabilities. All while our most productive play xbox during their most productive years, and we import the poorest of the world.

Like I've said, they only need to keep growing, and we keep shrinking. When Bernanke and Obama are forced to pull the plug on printing money, this will end very badly. The Chinese are only too happy to loan us 1$ trillion, when they earn $4 trillion in trade each year. BTW, they just passed us in annual trade. They are a bigger trading nation than we are.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2036

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
The Chinese are at war with us already. We just don't know it yet. They are slowly massing a fortune. Building world class carriers and jets. Drones. Cyber capabilities. All while our most productive play xbox during their most productive years, and we import the poorest of the world.

Like I've said, they only need to keep growing, and we keep shrinking. When Bernanke and Obama are forced to pull the plug on printing money, this will end very badly. The Chinese are only too happy to loan us 1$ trillion, when they earn $4 trillion in trade each year. BTW, they just passed us in annual trade. They are a bigger trading nation than we are.


China is amassing a fortune? China has fueled its economy by borrowing from Chinese banks instead of direct government spending and issuance of bonds as we do in the US. Scary...wait for the bubble! Their hold of US treasury bonds does not cover their other debts.

Profit margins in Chinese companies are thin. It will not take much of a slow down to really impact those business that have relied on very very very easy credit from these banks. Printing more Yuan will not help, it will just devalue their holdings in our debt.

Obviously, we need to get our own house in order on health care and defense spending to maintain a competitive economy. But, China has a long way to go before their economy could destroy ours.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14602

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
Printing more Yuan will not help, it will just devalue their holdings in our debt.

China has a long way to go before their economy could destroy ours.

Are you implying that our own money-printing will do anything different ... for the first time since the concept began ~2,500 years ago in Athens?

All they have to do to destroy ours ... and take the world economy down with it ... is call in our debt them. Source: virtually every author, pundit, economist, billionaire (I imagine even Oprah realizes that), talking head, and streetcorner windshield washer.

And surely you don't think Obama's sequestration plan will do anything but gut defense to the point we become a big fat vulnerable target, at which point the economy, jobs, Pelosi, AGW, basketball and golf and Hollywood parties won't matter any more. All that will matter shortly after our military is overrun is the Second Amendment.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2762

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
coboardhead wrote:
Printing more Yuan will not help, it will just devalue their holdings in our debt.

China has a long way to go before their economy could destroy ours.

Are you implying that our own money-printing will do anything different ... for the first time since the concept began ~2,500 years ago in Athens?

All they have to do to destroy ours ... and take the world economy down with it ... is call in our debt them. Source: virtually every author, pundit, economist, billionaire (I imagine even Oprah realizes that), talking head, and streetcorner windshield washer.

Say, Mikey, suck on these quotes from your friends at Fox News:

"But if you thought China's been doing most of the bankrolling, you might be surprised to learn who really holds our federal mortgage.

"Fully two-thirds of the national debt is owed to the U.S. government, American investors and future retirees, through the Social Security Trust Fund and pension plans for civil service workers and military personnel. China, it turns out, holds less than 8 percent of the money our government has borrowed over the years."


...and...

"China has actually decreased its holdings of U.S. debt over the past year, dropping from $1.31 trillion in June 2011 to $1.16 trillion a year later, according to the Treasury Department."

Amazing! Obama is doing a TERRIBLE job as the Marxist, commie, socialist, pinko, Nazi, Kenyan Fascist that you know he is by DECREASING our debt with China.

Mikey, you're wrong again. But, no surprise there.
.


Last edited by pueno on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2036

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been ongoing discussions of the Chinese/US economic relationship on NPR (the REAL news channel) for quite sometime.

China will not "call in" US debt. Why? Because the debt is mostly due to the trade imbalance between the countries. And, the US is still the best place to park extra cash for foreign countries. Switzerland and Japan do not like outside cash in their reserve because it drives their currency up and increases costs of exports.

If China called our debt, it would make their products more expensive. This could cause their highly leveraged private companies to go bankrupt. Note that during the recession, the Chinese borrowed heavily on internal private lending to continue to maintain their economy. There is a lot of question on the solvency of those loans.

Fear the Social Security trust fund calling its debt. That's scares me!
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3745
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love ISO's implication that China can just call our debt. If China wants to divest their holdings, as the above post suggests is already happening, then all they have to do is not participate in UST auctions. Since we are a huge importer of Chinese exports, they have more to lose than we do, until they become more of a consuming nation.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14602

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say China would, might, may, or has threatened to call in our debt to them. I just said calling it in would "fark" us, as did Nixon's abandonment of the gold standard when Germany called in gold to replace our paper IOUs to them. No one except the masses of voting myrmidons believe that printing play money IOUs (bonds or fiat money) to replace or back up "official" IOUs (dollar bills) is doing anything more than levitate the house of cards for a few more months. Given that, I can't comprehend why Krugman supported that platinum trillion dollar coin idea I thought was intended as a joke.

China has been wise enough to stop buying U.S. Treasurys (net holdings static at $1.16T for the last three years). The biggest buyer by far has been the Fed; "Bernanke & Company" bought 75% of all new Treasury debt in 2011, according to the founder of the largest investment bank in the Far East.

I presume you're aware that after NPR's very top management was caught on tape blatantly admitting their deliberate and strong leftward bias, they and their own ombudsmen publicly admitted gross institutional far left bias in their network. Verify anything you hear there before making any important statements or decisions based on their reportage, as I do with ANY media reports.


Last edited by isobars on Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2409

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
NPR's very top management was caught on tape blatantly admitting their deliberate and strong leftward bias, they and their own ombudsmen publicly admitted gross institutional far left bias in their network.

Will the revelations never end? Of course they're left leaning...they deal with the truth, not right wing talking points.

_________________
/w\
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2036

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

windoggie wrote:
isobars wrote:
NPR's very top management was caught on tape blatantly admitting their deliberate and strong leftward bias, they and their own ombudsmen publicly admitted gross institutional far left bias in their network.

Will the revelations never end? Of course they're left leaning...they deal with the truth, not right wing talking points.


Understanding that NPR will have a left slant, I still find that the basic news stories are more about news and less about hype than Fox. I always doubt any news source's reliability as I have been involved in several newsworthy (at least they made the news) events and the reporting was always wrong.

About China's hold on US debt...I have found that the right leaning sources really like to play this up. I suspect an agenda...perhaps because scaring us will insure our acceptance of continuing to fund a military the size of ours?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14602

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The global economics books, newsletters, and articles I've read don't even mention the military issue.

Our military is too weak now to manage clear and imminent dangers. Obama's proposals, from sequestration to nuclear disarmament, are suicidally insane and clearly illustrate his complete lack of comprehension of the importance of military superiority. His media echo chamber is just as naive.
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