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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3457

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how bout it Techno? Do you support holding the taxes of 98% of Americans hostage to get those low rates for the rich?
Or should they allow Republican Congressmen to vote on that issue?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"No change" of Medicare, SS, and Medicaid, as several Democratic legislators are demanding, means guaranteed bankruptcy of those programs. The fools advocating that should and would be voted out of office if so many voters didn't base their votes on free money, skin color (sorry, mac; they admit it and voting statistics prove it), and the like. Where are the Obamamoney leeches and the legitimate Medicare/SS/Medicaid recipients going to turn when their sources run dry?

Not to me, not while the Democrats keep promising them ever more unearned handouts. As long as that continues, my charity well is dried up. Until it is reversed, every cent I receive goes towards guaranteeing that I and my wife do not starve towards the ends of our lives. If we die owning money our relatives don't need and the Dems are still paying competent but greedy leeches outright unearned gifts to vote for them, our remaining funds will go to animal welfare, because of those two groups only they, as a group, deserve it. As long as our president is having dozens of meetings (30 already) with Mexican government and civilian agencies to find ways to pay Mexican citizens U.S. food stamps for emigrating to the U.S. (and of course, vote Democrat the minute Obama gives them that right), I will not give one cent to any charity benefiting humans. That constitutes bribery, malfeasance, misuse of public funds, and theft, just for starters, and should be grounds for impeachment.


Last edited by isobars on Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5361

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The middle of both parties understand that there need to be some combination of benefit cuts and revenue to take care of the deficits--projected in the future, not current--in Social Security and Medicare. The ACA is part of that--it is intended to slow the rate of increase of Medicare costs. It might work, it might not, but pronouncements from Fox news are so much nonsense right now. There is plenty written about the relatively minor adjustments necessary--and when. there is no reason to go over a fiscal cliff.

The idea that most Democrats aren't interested in shrinking the role of government, and haven't been doing it, is more claptrap from the corrupt for those who can't think critically. Look at the interesting graph of us government employees here: http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/05/29/government-employment-drops-under-obama-but-med/181931 Funny thing, US employees have dropped by about 500,000 under Obama--while they increased by three times that much under Bush. That inconvenient math.

We all know that shrinking Federal employment won't balance the budget--the big dogs are the military, social security, and medicare. But most Democrats are unwilling to chop a few million jobs and damage the economic recovery in order to start doing something about a future problem-quite a ways off--in Social Security. Remember, the Tea Party thugs walked away from a deal that would have had 3 times the amount of cuts as revenue increases--and they were willing to hold the economy hostage. Obama outsmarted them (there is a pattern here) see this commentary: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/11/obama-fiscal-cliff-budget-deal-bush-tax-cuts The interesting things here are first, the math. Obama managed to squeeze $238 billion in economic stimulus from the Republicans who oppose Keynsian approaches, in exchange for $114 billion in tax cuts for the high income. A pretty savvy deal with Tea partiers gumming up the works. The second interesting thing is that the Republicans had much more leverage then.

I agree with Techno, there is a lot of posturing and breast thumping going on. But I don't think Boehner is stupid enough to go over the cliff and then cry about it. I do think he is in way over his head negotiating with Obama. Obama and his crew knew when they cut the extension deal that they needed economic stimulus more than a big bruising symbolic battle. The stimulus was good for the economy--and good for Obama's re-election chances.

Without the benefit of math skills, the Tea Party folks signed onto a deal that wasn't as much in their interest as the one they rejected. Maybe some of the right should go back to school, study data bases to be able to manage a ground game, study economics to be able to figure out how to negotiate in their own interest.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1493

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keycocker said:
Quote:
So how bout it Techno? Do you support holding the taxes of 98% of Americans hostage to get those low rates for the rich?


That's not what I suggested or said. I think the right will give in on the taxing of the top 2%, if the left will offer a compromise. However, so far I haven't seen anything from the left. Now that they won the election, I guess they think they don't have to work with the right.

It seems that the left's strategy is - Hold firm, don't compromise and when we go off the cliff, blame it all on the right.

By the way for those that have some answers. If we do go off the cliff, but at some point later (Jan or Feb) an agreement is reached, what happens to the Bush tax cuts? Reinstated? Stuck the the pre Bush tax rates forever? Is the cliff really a cliff or just scare tactics? I haven't heard anything from the news regarding this question. Seems obvious to me, but not a word.

What I am impressed with is the not popular, but bold efforts of the right to begin working on the SS and Medicare problems now. The simple and easy tact is to just move on, claim a few tweaks will fix it, and leave it to the poor suckers down the road to solve when the situation becomes bad enough to send people into the streets in protest. Again, just an opinion.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5361

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno--you are entitled to your opinion--but not your own set of facts. Obama would have negotiated along the outline of the Bowles-Simpson recommendations, which identified the need to cut the military budget, the social security payouts, and medicare. Your boy Paul Ryan threw it under the bus.

Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1493

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac,

I am pretty sure that I didn't state any facts, but you are welcome to make up your own.

What "would have" is now water under the bridge. I think we had an election and since our leadership didn't change, as the right had hoped, why look back at the failed negotiations from the past. We are in somewhat of a new circumstance, so working toward a compromise solution seems reasonable, but ONLY if both sides do some compromising.

So is it a cliff or hype?

You were the one espousing "compromise", so now you have nothing to say when your side is causing the gridlock. Don't forget, 47% of the voting population doesn't think much of Obama so in my opinion, it's a pretty equal split between right and left, so the compromising in negotiations should pretty much follow suit.

I guess you heard about the new offer from the left today which sent the right into laughing mode because it was such a joke. Look it up and see if you think it was a viable, compromise offer.

No doubt, hitting the cliff/bump/obstacle/whatever seems pretty likely now.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3457

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right pf course. It is not what you suggested or said. It is an offer by tne Dems to give the GOP 98% of the tax agenda they have asked for.
The Dems ask nothing in return for it. Powerful conservatives who support this as well as those opposed have both said it would pass GOP muster if the leadership allowed a vote.
Polls say the American people, both GOP and Dem support this by a large margin.
It is a win /win on all sides.
Boner says no. The Gop leadership are going to have get something in return before we allow the American people to benefit in any way from a Dem offer.
The GOP House wants this
The American People want this.
we need it now.
My question is: do you think the GOP leadership is representing tne American people ,and yourself by refusing to allow most their own tax agenda to go forward?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the GOP caves without Democratic concessions and the FAR bigger apolitical economic collapse predicted by many successful experts materializes, the Dems will have no one to (credibly) blame that collapse on. Result: we'll all be bankrupt but the Democratic party will be destroyed for decades. Only time will tell whether that outcome is good or bad.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5361

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "facts" you have invented is that the Republicans have offered any concessions. They've suggested elimination of a few loopholes, which will generate chump change, in the unlikely event they make it past the lobbyists. They've demanded trillions in cuts--which Obama can't sell, and won't. Obama won the election, running on a platform of raise the rates for the two top tiers. What part of your guy lost do you not understand? What part of the GOP's leverage is weaker now do you not understand? What part of Ryan single-handedly tubed what was probably a better overall package for moderates do you not understand?

You want to ignore the past, despite what it tells you about the judgement of those still involved--Boehner and Ryan to be specific. You'd rather be governed by a white Republican who is astonishingly fiscally irresponsible, and of moderate intelligence, than a black Democrat who can actually get his party to compromise. And you are too ill-informed to realize how much Boehner got pantsed the last time, even when his leverage was greater.

Doomed to repeat your failures I fear.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3457

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So who are these rich people the middle class tax cut is being held as hostage by the GOP leadership?
Fact check says about 5000 of them are folks who pay no taxes despite huge incomes. They are part of Romneys speech that they are leeches who want a free ride. One is my friend who inherited millions in timber but lives on a modest income as a landlord. She has never gotten a dime from the Gov. and was moved to vote for Obama as a result. Most of that two percent are not really people at all.'
They are Corps who can vote millions of times with their money.
Actual Americans are not represented by the GOP leadership, and that fact has become crystal clear since the GOP leadership is stopping 98% of their supposed agenda from being enacted, while screwing the actual American people.
Wake up conservatives. You are being used by folks who do not represent you. It isnt your principles that need changing.
It is our so called GOP leadership who abandoned us long ago.
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