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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5248

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR--literally for free is absolutely nonsense. In the 1960's, when the marginal rate was 90%, I would agree that the progressive nature of the taxes was absurd. The current rate is 39%--which means you net over 60% of marginal income. If people are turning down raises for that they failed arithmetic, much less any higher math. This of course assumes that they will not take advantage of tax shelters, or make donations to non-profits of their choice, to direct their funds to causes that they agree with. That is an absurd assumption--unless you believe that accountants are the spawn of the devil.

To be sure, truth is not an essential component--or frequent visitor--to right wing talking points.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac,
I'm standing in my accountants office right now, showed him your message. He is still laughing. He says he knows how to do math too. It was a prerequisite for university. He also noted your system is not ours.

I'm taking his word over yours in this case.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1950
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we sat in tax law class taught by a sitting Tax Court judge, one student bemoaned the idea of graduated, progressive tax. He posited higher rates upon higher income reduced or eliminated the incentive to work hard. "Why should I work more only to have the government take more?"

The judge looked at him, then looked to the class for any volunteers to comment. When none did but many rolled their eyes, the judge said, "Mr. Jones. Did you lie on your law school admission application?"

"No. Of course not."

"Of course you didn't. You did graduate from elementary school. But can you then explain why you seem unable to apply percentages to your thinking about tax rates?"

"I don't understand."

"Fine. It's not my intention to belittle you nor any of your classmates who might hold the same view, but allow me to say it makes no sense. Except at the most upper range of a tax bracket, where earning the next few dollars bumps you to the next bracket, more adjusted income always means the earner takes home more money."

Does anyone here think that a greater adjusted gross leaves you will less money after taxes (excepting the marginal adjusted gross at the top of all but one of the brackets)?

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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marginally adjusted gross / thresholds same thing? Everyone's tax situation is different too. In the case of my employeee I had him go to my accountant to work with HIS situation so that we could reach a win / win scenario that would still allow me to honour his hard work.

Pueno,
Are you assuming I do not do so in other ways? If you wish to do so through a system that can not net the same yeild as the ones I have chosen to then that is your right. I choose to do otherwise.

Enough of my personal situations which are open for assumptions about my nature or actions. You can all step in any time to share some of your first hand experiences. I am always willing to learn here. I don't profess to have all the answers I am sharing my personal experiences which I draw some of my own conclusions. If I am incorrect then thank you for clarify.

Dan,
My accountant confirms that the system can be viewed as a diminishing rate of return for efforts or on income earned and can in fact in certain instances create scenarios where one might actually work for free given certain circumstances. He cited my employee's scenario as one of those.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1949

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually....

In the US social security payroll taxes are capped at incomes of about $113 k. So, the first dollar I make over that amount is subject to a 12.4% tax savings. So, it is less of a rate for the extra income.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2674

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:

Pueno,
Are you assuming I do not do so in other ways? If you wish to do so through a system that can not net the same yeild as the ones I have chosen to then that is your right. I choose to do otherwise.

I have absolutely no problem with you or anybody choosing to not work because you don't want to work.

But when your reason to not work is so you won't pay taxes (after you've used SO many social resources that are available because of those taxes that others pay), then I look with skepticism at your value system. I see it as quintessential self-centered greed. Those taxes that you don't want to pay support fire, police, ambulances, roads, parks, libraries, schools, universities, clean air and water, government oversight and safety regulation... and many, many more valuable hallmarks of society.

It is equally amusing and annoying that SO many people want to take those social services but refuse to acknowledge that someone must pay for them.
.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3561
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
Swchandler,

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/04/07/whats-my-tax-rate/

Does this article shed some light on my position? Perhaps the American tax plan has somehow become twisted, but ours has not followed that path yet.

My experience first hand with myself and others has been that some will carefully watch their income does not push them into the next tax bracket.

Personally I have had employees turn down raises or opt for working less at an increased rate of pay to avoid crossing the threshold to the next tax bracket. My sister used to work as a head hunter. The salary was commision based and most of the staff were high earners. They would intentionally stop at the threshold points to avoid the higher taxation rate because it litterally meant working for free after that threshold. Her employer would left with the results of that with many turning down searches and this reflected on the companies bottom line. I would rather give someone a raise for their efforts and not them or I be penalised in the process.

Perhap your system works differently than ours. I actually do pay what the charts indicate with a slight advantage due to being self employed.

I know that with that the left never make mistakes but this is what they did with some of my tax money:
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/08/oakville-gas-plant-cancellation-cost-11-billion

Don't worry, I realise that the right wing nuts make mistakes too.

In the US, you only pay higher taxes on the amount above the threshold.
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2374
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
We were developing a state of the art proof of concept in testing fighter aircraft software modifications. It embedded actual aircraft hardware and software into a computer facility designed from the ground up to make those airplane parts believe they were flying. The purpose was to save lives, planes, hundreds of millions of dollars, and months of sometimes dangerous testing AND obtain far more reliable results. The computers cost merely tens of millions, far cheaper than a fighter plane, so they were funded. But when we requested funds for the simulation and analysis software, the Pentagon, in all seriousness, said, "Write it yourself on your lunch breaks". It took us many weeks to make those idiots realize that were were talking about 50-100 man-years of state-of-the-art algorithms and code.

Apparently nothing has changed.


And never will. I used to have a saying back in the day that there was never enough time to do it right but plenty of time to fix it.

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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pueno,

To give a little more insight into how greedy I am. My accountant recently presented me with some scenarios considering this year has been exceptionally good. One scenario involved me taking more "me time" next year and deferring income to next year. I opted to pay my taxes in the current year (read more taxes), not take the more "me time" so that "everyone" could keep working and making more money to pay for their houses, children, cars, etc and maybe even give them a raise. I actually feel responsible not only for mine and my family's well being but for those who work for me, and society in general. I know this doesn't fit the nutty right wing conservative lunatic stereotype.

You know what else I don't do is rape the tax system by working for cash with my general contracting company (very very rare in this industry). You want to know how often I used to get asked? It used to be about 50% of the time before I started telling people when prequalifying them that I will not work for cash.

Is that self centered greed? Do you think you cold run and honest business in such a dishonest industry? Try it, it's fun. One year I kept track of the work I lost to a "cash" contractor. It came to $265,000 and that was just the ones I knew about. That was almost 1/3 of my gross revenue. So you think you could resist the urge when it's cutting into "your" bottom line? Greed huh?


Last edited by reinerehlers on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3561
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rr...the effective federal tax rate in the US for earners north of $1,000,000 is 20.1%, certainly not a deterrent to making money...I cannot speak for Canada.
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