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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14054

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delaware must have 90,000 people sign up for O'care to work.
Tally so far: 1. Uno. Ein. One. ZERO plus 1.
If Bill Gates rolled out a new Windows OS this inept, he'd be on welfare overnight.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1452

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The math of the ACA for the simpletons.

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsVqOe07cdY[/url]\

What's missing that the liberals will point out is that all the young and healthy folks will now be paying into the system (most of them needlessly) so that there will be enough money to cover those that get it free, at a reduced cost, or have expensive medical issues and can't get insurance.
Will there be enough money? Time will tell, but I doubt it. Costs for the majority will likely go up and services will likely go down.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

If Bill Gates rolled out a new Windows OS this inept, he'd be on welfare overnight.

He has, a number of times. And he's not.
.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5778

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900, the thing that you and Dave Ramsey seem to be conveniently ignoring is that anyone that receives health care today has been paying for those folks that need medical care and don't have health insurance. If they have a heart attack, or get seriously injured in an auto accident and end up in the hospital, who pays for that? What is clear to me is that radio talk show ideologues like Ramsey aren't really doing the math. Moreover, Ramsey isn't being honest about the issue.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Ramsey stated that you are are already paying for that 46% of "do-nothings" . I heard him say that people who are healthy are paying the same as people who are unhealthy either by chance or choice, and he compared it to life insurance and how the premiums are determined there.

Ramsey helps people get out of debt and has a great saying that people," need to get a bigger shovel" (higher income / working harder / delivering pizzas / whatever it takes to bring in more). I think Ramsey, as usual, has made a great point here. Perhaps the bigger shovel lies in getting those 46% working and making govenment responsible as to what they are doing with tax payers money and the rate of return for that money (like not taking $100 million dollar vacations = criminal), and start digging there. Creating an environment that employers are left with this burden and the back door out is a recipe for disaster too. Ramsey employs over 450 people, I think he knows what he's talking about.
Schwandler,

You think it's a good plan to make healthy young people or people who have lived a healthy lifestyle pay for those who have not? I still think there is going to be a welfare aspect of your system for those who just pure can't or less fortunate but not punishing those who are healthy.

Create jobs, provide incentives to employers, stop breathing down businesses necks, create better tax incentives to corporations small and large. Create those jobs and not this nonsense of "improving infrastructure" that is spending tax dollars you don't have on something you "should" have done when the economy was good, and stop with the skate parks, hockey arenas, public pools that just bleed cash already. Not everyone needs sunshine blown up their rear end all the time. Taking a walk or riding your bike doesn't cost tax payers anything and little junior will still live without soccer and hockey. AND while their at it there's a huge percentage of civil servants who need a boot, their pay cut, and/or reduced benefits. Jobs that produce nothing are bleeding us all dry.


Last edited by reinerehlers on Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3335

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The welfare aspect would shrink if it works.
Right now about one third of Americans do not pay for health care or have ins.
The rest of us pay for their care, including both young and old.
A lot of those folks will buy insurance now so we might have a smaller welfare segment than the 30% whose healthcare we now pay.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, don't get me wrong. I live under socialized medicine and couldn't imagine life without it. I pay for it dearly in my taxes and I grumble about paying for the "do nothings" but I still feel fortunate to be blessed with what I do have.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14054

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
I live under socialized medicine and couldn't imagine life without it..

I all but destroyed a knee on the evening of Thursday July 4. The next morning I picked up the phone book and cold-called the board certified sports medicine surgeon of my choice. By that afternoon he and I were going over my fresh x-rays together and discussing my surgical options. Wanting to get back into challenging WSing, I chose the hamstring autograft procedure usually reserved for athletes a third my age. They can operate as soon as my knee swelling abates enough to allow normal range of motion and my quad strength is up to par. Getting surgery before those criteria are met is a recipe for permanent lameness.

I cold-called a highly specialized board certified sports rehabilitation PhD physical therapist immediately, and was in his hands the next morning at 7:00 AM. The day he pronounced my knee ready, we cut. I'm now in an intensive 12-month rehab program with him.

Just consulting those specialists the first time, if available at all to someone my age in Canada, would take 9-15 months.

I could have elected to do all this through my socialized medicine system, the VA ... maybe. However, that would have taken months, accessed unknown doctors of doubtful skills in grungy hospitals with abominable recovery facilities, gotten me a cadaver ACL with all its downsides, quite possibly have led to total meniscetomies commonly performed on old people who don't need sound knees, and thrown me into a generic PT program tailored towards doddering old couch potatoes. I seriously doubt I'd ever be able to WS again after the VA care I have available; this ain't Walter Reed and I wasn't injured in combat. And the VA would still bill all my charges to the three health care policies for which I pay cash just to avoid their socialized medicine nightmare.

But ignorance is bliss, and frogs are quite happy to boil if thrown in when the water was cool.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5146

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR--those of us who studied math understand that anecdotes like knee injuries don't explain large scale trends. You seem to have fallen into a fallacy that we earn our own health conditions because of our life style choices. If we step back and look at the entire population of the US, we know that the obesity epidemic accounts for a significant part of our health care costs. But that is no longer true when we look at individuals, or at the economics of the mish-mash of health care before the ACA. In fact, a disproportionate share of our health care costs goes to end of life care.

Estimates have been made that obesity currently represents $190 billion in annual costs, and could grow to $344 billion. http://www.fightchronicdisease.org/media-center/releases/new-data-shows-obesity-costs-will-grow-344-billion-2018 End of life care is slightly smaller--such care accounts for about 28% of our Medicare bill, or about $170 billion on the Federal cost side. (2011 data, from Kaiser http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Daily-Reports/2013/June/04/end-of-life-care.aspx)

There is greater potential for reducing obesity related costs than end-of-life costs. The latter have not been increasing as dramatically as obesity costs. Better education about quality of life should lead to families making better decisions about heroic measures unlikely to prolong life substantially, at great cost to quality of life. But measures to incentivize health, or dis-incentivize bad health habits are controversial in the United States. Rather than reflect the health impacts of products such as cigarettes and sweetened drinks, we subsidize the production of tobacco and sugar, and the health costs are transferred to the general public or the insurance base. I am definitely not a fan of outright bans, but I do think the health costs of products should be reflected in their price.

At the individual level, good health practices do not guarantee lower health costs. My wife and I were nearly killed in an auto accident due to the criminal behavior of a driver in a car with only $30,000 worth of insurance. Both of us sustained injuries costing over $200,000 in immediate care, plus life-long disabilities. (I am not, however, on disability--VA or otherwise.) A certain amount of random bad stuff comes with life--you don't earn it. That is what pooled insurance is all about.

Of course, even with Medicare (a subsidy for old windsurfers who blow out their knee, or damage their shoulders), there are always options under the ACA to retain your insurance or include riders for better care or catastrophic injuries.

There are certainly going to be areas of unintended consequences that we will find with the ACA. They should be addressed--ideally in a bi-partisan manner that uses market forces. But the current level of attacks by the far right borders on treasonous.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5778

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers,

You expect me to take you seriously when you can't even get my name right?

Even though you're Canadian, you seem to have your Republican talking points down when they're convenient for you and your argument. Yet, as we all know, the ACA is basically a Republican idea coming out of the Heritage Foundation, and it reflects a position that folks should be responsible for themselves.

When it comes down to healthcare reform, it's either that kind of system or one like Medicare for all. Surely, America can't keep going on with the broken system we've had for too long, particularly given how much health care costs have been wildly escalating over time. Ramsey doesn't even acknowledge that, and predictably, he has offered up nothing useful. Why should anyone that recognizes the problems we face listen to him? Before I watched the video, I had no idea that Ramsey even existed because I don't listen to right wing talk radio. But after listening to his broadcast, I found that he just another right wing ideologue echoing worn Republican talking points that advance nothing positive or useful.

Regarding stimulating our economy and creating jobs, what have the Republicans in Congress offered? Have they been able to make good on their promise of jobs in the election of 2010? I think most thoughtful folks realize that more government jobs isn't the way to a stronger America. However, they do recognize that investing in infrastructure that is so badly needed today. Government can facilitate that in so many ways that private business can't. Ironically though, it's private business that benefits hugely when the government invests in infrastructure, and that means jobs for Americans all over the country. I'm amazed that folks like you can't see the benefits.

Where I live, there have been major infrastructure investments being made in highway improvements for some time now. It's something that has been long overdue, and is so sorely needed in so many ways. When I'm out and about, I see a lot of folks working and so much progress being made. These aren't government employees. They work for private businesses that are contracted through government infrastructure investments. If the government wasn't making these investments, many of the folks now working wouldn't have a job and be effectively supporting their families and investing in their communites. With all the obvious progress being made on the physical aspects of the projects, there are the long term improvements that will come about with more effective movement of people, goods and services. If you doubt that, just imagine an America without President Eisenhower's vision of a national highway system.

I don't know whether you watched Ken Parks' latest effort covering the birth and development of the National Park System here in the US. It serves as an excellent example of the government and our leaders doing the right kind of things for the nation as a whole. Why don't you look beyond the shallow Republican talking points, and begin to see a more positive vision for our nation.
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