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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30 wrote:

I understand that you will now be able to get covered, but have you been able to check yet as to how much it will cost you?
From what I'm understanding so far, is that you won't get turned down with a pre existing condition, however those people will have premiums that will be substantially higher than those w/o.
Let us know what you find out.


From http://www.healthcare.gov -
"Starting in 2014, being sick won't keep you from getting health coverage. An insurance company can't turn you down or charge you more because of your condition".

That is the law. I have not yet applied to find out if it is true.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14226

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottwerden wrote:
I really do not get why the right is so against making sure everyone has access to insurance.

An insurance company can't turn you down or charge you more because of your condition.

That is the law.

Then you do not understand the difference between insurance and unearned welfare.

The latter is money taken by force of law from uninvolved and non-benefiting bystanders who earned it and given to recipients because they draw breath and wannit (a la Jason Greenslate).

The former is a pool formed to spread the costs of big HYPOTHETICAL losses (flood, auto or plane accidents, injury or illness, lives, dog bites) that MAY occur some time in the FUTURE according to known actuarial databases.

"Insurance" purchased after the flood, accident, cancer diagnosis, dog bite, etc.) is not real insurance; it is unearned welfare (unless its premiums reflect its certainty). Example: My home gets flooded. The repair estimate is $30,000, which I'd rather put into a really nice TV set. So I buy flood insurance, which normally costs, say, $200 per year. My first year's flood insurance premium should thus be $30,200, because that particular flood loss is no longer uncertain; it is a preexisting condition.

Similarly, if I ever buy more life insurance, I fully expect to pay extra for any risks associated with the two specific cancers in my background.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1952

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott

We had a topic last year that Feuser started titled "is insurance coverage for pre existing conditions welfare?" The first page may be of interest to you...before the thread fell apart for the usual reasons.
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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea what the heck isobars is talking about, or anyone else who associates insuring pre-existing condition to welfare. All I am saying is that (a) I have what insurance companies consider to be a so-called pre-existing condition, (b) I could not get insurance until ACA came along. This has nothing to do with the government or welfare. This is between me and the insurance company.

The astute reader might ask - "so who is paying for insuring a pre-existing condition?". The short answer is the insurance company. The long answer, is well, the insurance company.

Consider this: My company's premium for group coverage for me when I was working was about $500/month. The plan I am offered through the exchange which is close to my former company plan is about $800/month in premiums. Two conclusions from this: (a) Since group plans insure pre-existing conditions, and since an insurer is not going to sell a plan that loses money, obviously insurance companies still make money when they insure pre-existing conditions. And (b), since I am paying more for the exchange plan, than my former group plan, there is no government subsidy involved to make this economically feasible through private insurance.

The only reason insurance companies do not want to cover pre-existing, is because they make a lot more money by not doing so. ACA is forcing insurance companies to insure the masses in the same way they insure business-group workers. That is all. It has nothing to do with welfare.

People who do not want to help get insurance to those for whom it was previously inaccessible are beyond the pale, IMO. I really do not get how someone can be so mean spirited. Good health is a basic human right, again, IMO.
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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might add that it is easy for someone to be sanctimonious about others when they do not have to pay a nickle for insurance because they are covered for life by the VA. That smells to me like a form of "welfare" that is being railed about here.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1952

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly! In my case, I have paid six figures more in insurance premiums over the years than I have received in benefits. Without the ACA I could get cancelled by my insurer if I get sick or have premiums become unaffordable. I do not understand how anyone with any knowledge of self employment would consider requiring insurance companies to treat me like an employee of a large corporation to be welfare.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think Isobars does have a point, although he gets it wrong:

Coverage for pre-existing conditions is welfare - as is coverage for conditions diagnosed shortly after becoming a contributing member to the insurance pool. Both are unearned benefits.

Where Iso gets it wrong are: a.: his lack of understanding of non-portable, employer-based insurance - where one, through completely unlreated life circumstances, can be left hanging after contributing a quarter million in premiums over a decade and b.: the fact that those with a pre-existing condition are fighting for their right to contribute to the pool - not just draw from it. And c.: that the real drain are the non-participants in the system and e.: that we get to pay for the treatment of the uninsured anyway through our taxes and f.: that the primary goal of the ACA is to reduce voluntary non-participation in the risk pool.

But he does have a point.

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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isobars has no point. Insurance is a means to ameliorate risk among a pool of people. Welfare is not risk sharing, it is the government providing assistance to those who cannot afford the basics of living. Isobars knows that but like any good Republican, he considers "welfare" to be a pejorative, handy for flinging around in one of his bitter, sanctimonious diatribes.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5830

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I wasn't covered by a healthcare plan through my past employer, I wouldn't have had a chance in hell of getting health insurance since I retired in 2004. Fortunately, I was one of the lucky ones that made it to retirement without losing my job and my insurance along with it. Now, with the ACA, many folks don't have to be paranoid about losing their insurance because they're laid off, particularly those who could be construed as having a pre-existing condition.

With regard to the comments from our character from the Great Northwest, he easily shows the hate and the lack of caring that fills his being. We should be used to it by now, but I have to admit that I still find it unsettling to hear such nonsense.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottwerden wrote:
Isobars has no point. Insurance is a means to ameliorate risk among a pool of people. Welfare is not risk sharing, it is the government providing assistance to those who cannot afford the basics of living. Isobars knows that but like any good Republican, he considers "welfare" to be a pejorative, handy for flinging around in one of his bitter, sanctimonious diatribes.


You misread me. I used welfare in the non-pejoaritive from the English, not the GOP dictionary.

With everyone insured, this welfare in the form of free health care, now delivered through emergency rooms, is mostly going away.

You're right, though, the math of risk-sharing is also beyond Iso as his post from 21 Sep shows:
22-yo college grads will now be fully insured against Alzheimer's (at their parents' expense, if desired)

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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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