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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5817

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"...the incessant attacks on the immigrants themselves largely leave blameless the businesses who hire immigrants without checking their status,..."


In my view, this is the keystone of our problem. Without it, there would be a precipitous drop in illegal immigration. By the way, I have no problem with the term "illegal immigrants", because that's what they are. They have immigrated to this country illegally. That said, it is pretty damn clear to me that the majority of folks really don't have a serious problem with the fact that a notable percentage of our population, particularly here in California, are Hispanics that migrated here illegally. It is demonstrated by the fact that they can live in our communities without difficulty. They can get jobs, rent property, spend their money, and most importantly find community both socially and economically. Ever drive out of town and search for a radio station to listen to? Hispanics have their own radio stations, and in addition, they have their own TV stations and newspapers. Their influence is huge. Any that deny it are only fooling themselves.

Let me add an important point. Illegal immigrants leverage off of one of America's stellar virtues. Acceptance. Without it, illegal immigration would be virtually impossible. Of course, there are those that have a welling hate for outsiders, or anybody who might be viewed as different, but in America they are the exception. Some here might spend some time looking back through our history. It's all there to see. But overall, time after time, we Americans prove that we are an accepting society that welcomes those that want to get ahead in the world.


Last edited by swchandler on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac...You did not mis-spell immigrant. I did. My point was that you came down pretty hard on Techno for his use of the term "illegal immigrant".

I like Boggsman's description of why some might find the term offensive. But, frankly, I never thought of it could be considered offensive before your calling Techno on it. You know we do say that a remodel without a permit is an "illegal remodel" but, do not brand the homeowner an "illegal remodeler".

Even though I understand your point a bit better now, I still believe we need to get beyond worrying too much about how people describe things. I would much rather have someone involved in the dialogue than be afraid they will say something politically incorrect.

Boggsman...I agree that providing health care to...er...undocumented folks...does make economic sense, especially for prenatal and children.


Last edited by coboardhead on Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2647

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
Immigration is flowing to fill a need in our free market, labor. It results in profit margins, and economic multipliers, thus a net net. I wish some of the righty's here would get on board the opinion of their bible, The Wall Street Journal which looks at immigration economically, not Xenophobically.

That is utter nonsense. There are about 4 million people lined up to enter the US legally. They have filled out the voluminous paperwork, paid the fees, tolerated the incompetence of government bureaucrats, and are waiting patiently for their turn. I know........I am the only one in this discussion who has done that. Yet liberals are obsessed with the sensibilities of those who chose to ignore the rules, jumped the line, and who frequently broke other laws in order to remain here.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mrgybe has an important point. In the construction industry here, one of the concrete contractors uses only documented workers. They are insured, pay payroll taxes etc. Another contractor is not so above board. It is not fair to either the rule-abiding workers or business owners for us to blatantly look the other way.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3554
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
boggsman1 wrote:
Immigration is flowing to fill a need in our free market, labor. It results in profit margins, and economic multipliers, thus a net net. I wish some of the righty's here would get on board the opinion of their bible, The Wall Street Journal which looks at immigration economically, not Xenophobically.

That is utter nonsense. There are about 4 million people lined up to enter the US legally. They have filled out the voluminous paperwork, paid the fees, tolerated the incompetence of government bureaucrats, and are waiting patiently for their turn. I know........I am the only one in this discussion who has done that. Yet liberals are obsessed with the sensibilities of those who chose to ignore the rules, jumped the line, and who frequently broke other laws in order to remain here.

I dont disagree with your point. But, rather than complain about the system that we DO have, why dont you suggest how we get US corps to abide by the "law".
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5817

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Yet liberals are obsessed with the sensibilities of those who chose to ignore the rules, jumped the line, and who frequently broke other laws in order to remain here."


One has to wonder whether mrgybe believes that it's the liberals that are offering all the jobs and providing housing for illegal immigrants. Based on his dialog, it seems like it.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14165

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
I like Boggsman's description of why some might find the term offensive.

OMG. Someone is worried about offending a lawbreaker by calling him a lawbreaker? That's just plain stupid. What better way to persuade a lawbreaker with any conscience to stop breaking the law than to embarrass him by pointing out in no uncertain terms that he's a lawbreaker? If an accurate description of their behavior embarrasses or offends someone, the right solution is to CHANGE THE BEHAVIOR, not whine because you got caught at it.

Liberals!!!!!
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5218

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inquiring minds want to know--is this "Facism?"

Very Happy
Embarassed
Evil or Very Mad
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3554
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ISO, Im with you. How do you suppose a broken down retired dude from the tri-cities, and a financial hack in SF get the big giant companies in the US like Kraft , and Monsanto from employing these hardened criminals ? I'm all ears tough guy...its absolutely hilarious to see all the rightys today, and think that if Ronald Reagan ran for the nomination of the GOP, he wouldnt stand a chance.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14165

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
That is utter nonsense. There are about 4 million people lined up to enter the US legally. They have filled out the voluminous paperwork, paid the fees, tolerated the incompetence of government bureaucrats, and are waiting patiently for their turn. ... Yet liberals are obsessed with the sensibilities of those who chose to ignore the rules, jumped the line, and who frequently broke other laws in order to remain here.

As chairman of a statewide motorcycle racing association, I had to adjudicate often over accusations of cheating, especially shortcutting in long-distance desert races. I lost a lot of friends because I sided with strangers who had run the course fairly over friends who had cheated.

I don't miss a one of those friends. Cheaters, thieves, and other criminals deserve the consequences of their actions every bit as much as honest people deserve the rewards of their honesty.

Of course, that paradigm depends on having a value system, explicitly anathema to most liberals.
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