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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 710

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all I'm not a Republican and I don't hate Mexicans, I grew up in California so of course many of my friends are Mexican nationality.
Illegal immigration, oh how the times have changed. Caesar Chavez and the United Farm Workers were against illegal immigration. I found this on Wikipedia, "In 1973, the United Farm Workers set up a "wet line" along the United States-Mexico border to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States illegally and potentially undermining the UFW's unionization efforts.[29] During one such event, in which Chavez was not involved, some UFW members, under the guidance of Chavez's cousin Manuel, physically attacked the strikebreakers after peaceful attempts to persuade them not to cross the border failed"
After Clinton passed NAFTA corn prices collapsed and the Mexican farmers flooded into the US basically as economic refugees seeking a better life. I don't blame them personally but this should not be allowed to happen.
What kind of insane system have we created? large segments of our population out of the workforce, disabled or on welfare, foodstamps, section 8 housing etc.. while we allow people to sneak in and be exploited by businesses.
Many are hardworking but many are not, every Home Depot I have seen in California has at least 100 day workers milling about in front, what job are these people doing that American's won't do?
I live in Hawaii now and the illegal invasion has yet to reach here in great numbers and as a result we have about the lowest unemployment rate in the nation, you actually see white people doing yardwork, working in restaurants, even washing dishes!
I could go on and on about how it's decimated the construction trades industry.
This is not good for Mexico, how can they solve their problems when their youngest most capable males, the ones who would start businesses and drive the economy are absent?
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2711

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
Mr Gybe...is it also a problem that 25 Million citizens without health insurance also use the ER as a primary means of care?

Of course not..........Congress has given the President $1 trillion to solve that problem. January 1, 2014 they will all be covered as promised.....and our premiums will reduce by $2,500. Illegals, however, are not eligible to benefit from Obamacare.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1363

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just two points Beagle. The quality of any service depends on the staff. Those who's knowledge of the N.H.S. is solely from media may have a false impression. There are good hospitals and some substandard ones. The bad are the ones receiving all the current publicity.

Many of us are fortunate to live in traditional conservative (small c) areas where the old virtues are maintained. Those hospitals in our areas are generally excellent, with dedicated staff upholding the standard. Those hospitals which had been operating the so called pathway to death, are unacceptable, and not typical of the norm.

Age is not discriminated against in our community. At aged 70 I was diagnosed as having a cancer. That was successfully operated on and removed, and the all clear was subsequently given. From my point of view, and that of our community, the N.H.S. is not failing.

(Will continue, but still experiencing timing out problems.)


Last edited by GURGLETROUSERS on Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14313

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
Illegals, however, are not eligible to benefit from Obamacare.

'Course not, now that the AP, probably with White House influence, has banned the application of the I-word -- some media actually now say "The I-word" -- to all non-white humans. Foreign citizens here legally are officially classified by the government as "legal aliens", but foreign citizens here illegally are now to be called something like "nice people visiting our country without having been officially admitted" (i.e., they haven't offered an alternative yet.)

Leno did: "Illegal Democrats".

The problem with "nice people visiting our country without having been officially admitted" is that by the time somebody says or writes it and the next person hears or reads it, they've already been blown up by some terrorist, have asked if we have any back-breaking work we're too shiftless to do, or have gotten a PhD in bioastrophysics and gone back to Crapistan with it.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1363

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secondly, the compensation culture is not solely your problem. Ours runs under the guise of Health and Safety legislation. It throws up ridiculous cases.

You may have read a shocking example highlighted only days ago. A garage owner suspected a break in at his closed and unlit premises one night, and called the police. A woman P.C. was sent to check. Accompanied by the owner she searched around the darkened premises by torch light, and tripped and fell over a kerb. (Standard issue on millions of pathways all over the country.) The owner helped her to her feet, and they continued the search, found nothing, and she drove off to return to duty.

Later, the owner was astounded to receive a summons for massive compensation to the 'injured, police woman! Namely, it claimed he had, failed to carry out a risk assessment of the premises before calling her out, had failed to provide adequate lighting of his premises, (it was closed, and deserted.), and had not warned her about the kerb!!!!

The whole thing is now a matter of national outrage, ridicule, and real anger directed towards the police. Even government officials are demanding clarification. The woman concerned is now off duty (sick) and in hiding from the press, who have found that she has 'history', and the chief constable has distanced himself from her actions by issueing a coded message to the effect that her behaviour fell short of that expected of the force. (Translation, she is a bloody disgrace, and should be kicked off the force!)
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5884

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe has been very liberal with his criticisms of the ACA, and he makes it so easy to stand in judgment and target his disdain for the Obama Administration's efforts. What's missing in his dialog are any thoughtful solutions to our problems. It's much easier to cast a negative shadow and continue highlight his disappointment. It's probably a waste of time on my part, but I'm still waiting for his response to my comments on page 27. What would mrgybe do in place of the ACA, and how would that resolve the problems we have with the tens of millions of US citizens and illegal immigrants that are uninsured?
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 710

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll offer, if the laws already on the books were enforced, the border secured, a proper system to determine if workers are legally in the country was in place AND if public benefits were to not be given out to people here illegally most of the illegal aliens would self deport back to where ever they came from. Rolling Eyes
The problem is both parties seem to like the situation as it is, Republicans like the illegals for cheap labor and Democrats like the illegals because they want to make them citizens and know they will all become Democrats. Rolling Eyes
You are welcome for stating the obvious.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5884

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks beaglebuddy, but I have to say that my real interest is with the ACA rather than illegal immigration. Of course, I did mention illegal immigrants lacking health insurance. They will continue to be a problem for us until we can resolve our current situation. I think that it's a good issue for Congress right now, and I'm glad that it's being addressed. That gives me some room for optimism.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1960

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
coboardhead wrote:
I would like to think you could reorganize health care as a business, but how would a business deal with a fulfilling a contract in a market that is out of their control that is such a large part of the total economy? Seriously, I am asking a question.

To have reasonable assurance of success in a reorganization of this scale, several key elements have to be present..........1) buy-in from all, or at least most, of the significant stakeholders or complete ability to enforce the proposed changes regardless of the opinions of the stakeholders. 2) those who will be impacted understand what the impact will be and what they are tasked with doing. I currently see none of this. With only a few months to go a significant number of states have declined to construct exchanges (and Federal contingency planning seems lacking), businesses are confused, and the vast majority of the general public has no idea what to expect or what they will need to do. Perhaps all this will work itself out in the next few months. I'm not optimistic and would not be surprised to see a delayed implementation.

A well run business would have regarded the enormous uncertainties and lack of control in this venture as far too risky to tackle so comprehensively and in such a short time. They would not have undertaken it in this fashion. They would have attempted to introduce change in a phased manner learning as they went along.


Mrgybe...Thanks for the reply. Apologies...I asked a question and then disappeared biking in the desert for several days.

Unfortunatately, government does not run as a business. It would be pretty difficult for any business to implement a major turnaround with a board of directors with 535 members and subsidiaries (the states) with even more. It is truly amazing that anything gets accomplished.

While a business may look at slowly phasing in a major program, I do not believe this would have been possible for the ACA, as you, and Techno, have suggested. Remember that this law was a compromise between the government, providers and insurers. Partial implementation would have stepped on toes and jeopardized future implementation efforts.

The most important element of the plan...the mandate...was fought bitterly by the opposition. I agree with SWC that this hard fight has taken its political toll.

Please do not interpret from my comments that I am a total fan of the ACA. It is a compromise solution. I hope it involves in directions that really address root causes of health care costs in this country.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1960

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illegal aliens are not THE problem with health care costs:

From an article in the Salt Lake newspaper:

Quote:
A 2006 study in the journal Health Affairs reported that total health care costs for non-elderly illegal immigrants was $6.5 billion (extrapolated from a Los Angeles survey of 2,000 families), 17 percent of which was paid for by public sources. It also found that per capita medical spending for illegal immigrant men was 39 percent that of native-born men and for women was about half of what native women spend. The cost to each taxpaying American, the researchers determined, was $11 for each illegal immigrant. A 2009 report by the National Center on Immigration Integration Policy found that 69 percent of undocumented immigrants do not have health insurance from employers.


One issue in the "path for citizenship" debate is that new residents will become eligible for health insurance, which will add some new costs beyond payroll taxes collected (as we all do).

The argument that the poor and illegal aliens are clogging ER's is becoming less of an issue as hospitals are developing adjacent clinics to treat the non-emergent cases. And, communities (such as mine), have developed clinics staffed by volunteer physicians to treat both undocumented and documented immigrants.

Beaglebuddy...if you would like to understand why our health care costs are high, you may wish to consult Pogo for his take.
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