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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1493

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sw said:
Quote:
And, like I pointed out earlier, we need immigration reform. We need to bring illegal immigrants into our economy in a way that captures their productivity and ultimately includes their tax contributions.


If we do this, I wonder about a few issues:
Will the workers pay taxes into SS and Medicare?
1. If yes, and they eventually receive the benefits, will that add support to the programs or put more stress on them?
2. If yes, will they receive all government benefits and assistance, unemployment, Medicaid, welfare, etc?
3. If no, will they receive any government benefits - healthcare/medicaid?
4. If no, will they be required to buy health insurance through the ACA?
5. If no, but they pay income tax, how many will get complete refunds and end up paying no income tax. Since most are low wage earners, I see little if any income tax benefit from their legal employment.

I am skeptical about 11 million new legal bodies, some paying taxes, doing anything but causing a drain on government. Yes, many will fill jobs that Americans do not want to do, and will continue to support farming, manufacturing, construction, etc., but I feel the complexity, and the pros and cons of the issue has yet to be fully investigated or understood.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5888

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900,

We have to remember that no one has yet defined what immigration reform will be and ultimately mean in the end. Yet, if agreements are reached and we formally bring illegal immigrants into our system, it's kind of like having a child. You can't decide to have one and subsequently decide to walk away when things don't work out to your complete satisfaction.

Regarding your primary question, "will the workers pay taxes into SS and Medicare?", I would say yes. That will definitely add support, but it could also add stress on them. Not all immigrants are the same age, so younger ones would contribute considerably over their lifetime while older ones might not. If they meet the conditions for citizenship, given that it is a possibility (and that doesn't mean that it would have to be an outcome), they would receive the benefits earned, like under SS, and they would receive other benefits and assistance much like any other citizen.

One thing that can't be ignored, illegal immigrants will receive health care regardless of their legal status or financial position. Right or wrong, that's the way it is even right now.

I have to say that I don't get what you're trying to say under your question 4. The ACA is completely independent of SS and Medicare. However, if illegals are brought into the system in some way and pay taxes, they would either have health insurance through their employer, or they would have to buy health insurance just like anyone else.

Regarding question 5, a lot would depend on their legal status. I have to admit, I'm not up on the rules and benefits associated with being a legal alien. Needless to say though, if they become US citizens, they could receive earned income if their tax position warranted it.

Overall, one has to recognize that the situation we have right now is not good for the nation. Having folks in the shadows like we have today doesn't mean that they don't impact the nation and our society in huge ways. What we have now is almost like quasi-slavery. One can't continue to ignore the situation like so many on the right seem to do, and we can't get rid of illegals like so many on the right seem to think. As long as folks continue to hire them, they will be amongst us and affect our society in a myriad of ways.
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youwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 665
Location: Classified

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservative politicians want to retain the status quo. It works for their base, the 1%. Any type of reform, be it health care or immigration, has the potential to upset the status quo. That is why, other than attempting to reduce government spending, Conservatives have no agenda to address the issues that need attention.

Here is just one example of the ridiculous nature of the situation:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/08/1290548/-Boehner-says-House-can-t-pass-immigration-reform-because-Obama-is-mean

House Speaker John Boehner blames President Barack Obama for Congress’s inability to pass an immigration reform bill, saying that it’s a lack of trust in the president that keeps members of the GOP from getting it done.

“The American people want us to deal with immigration reform,” Boehner said on Fox News’s “Kelly File” on Monday. “I’ve tried to get the House to move on this now for the last 15 or 16 months. But every time the president ignores the law, like the 38 times he has on Obamacare, our members look up and go, ‘Wait a minute: You can’t have immigration reform without strong border security and internal enforcement, how can we trust the president to actually obey the law and enforce the law that we would write?’”
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1799
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's about damn time!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/11/us/politics/sebelius-resigning-as-health-secretary.html?_r=0

Sinking ship syndrome?

_________________
I don't drink the 'cool' aid, I drink tequila, it's more honest.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2703

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nitwit30 wrote:
Sinking ship syndrome?

Nahh....

Read the article, not just the headline. She's 65. She can sign up for that horrible government-run socialist commie pinko Marxist liberal leftist Ponzi scheme program called Medicare. You know....... that program that Saint Ronnie said would be the end of of freedom and liberty as we knew it.
.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1799
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sponge
_________________
I don't drink the 'cool' aid, I drink tequila, it's more honest.
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youwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 665
Location: Classified

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30 wrote:
Sponge


worthy.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4228

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

youwindsurf wrote:
Conservative politicians want to retain the status quo. It works for their base, the 1%. Any type of reform, be it health care or immigration, has the potential to upset the status quo. That is why, other than attempting to reduce government spending, Conservatives have no agenda to address the issues that need attention.

Here is just one example of the ridiculous nature of the situation:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/08/1290548/-Boehner-says-House-can-t-pass-immigration-reform-because-Obama-is-mean

House Speaker John Boehner blames President Barack Obama for Congress’s inability to pass an immigration reform bill, saying that it’s a lack of trust in the president that keeps members of the GOP from getting it done.

“The American people want us to deal with immigration reform,” Boehner said on Fox News’s “Kelly File” on Monday. “I’ve tried to get the House to move on this now for the last 15 or 16 months. But every time the president ignores the law, like the 38 times he has on Obamacare, our members look up and go, ‘Wait a minute: You can’t have immigration reform without strong border security and internal enforcement, how can we trust the president to actually obey the law and enforce the law that we would write?’”


If their base were the 1%, then Obama should have won by 99%. You forget that Obama has hosted over 1000 $60,000 a plate, rubber chicken dinners for his oligarch amigos.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5888

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The money required in politics today is outrageous. It's not a Republican or Democrat thing, because the politicians in both parties need to fish for money. Nobody can ignore it.

Bard, aren't you being a bit hypocritical with your efforts to flog President Obama for raising money from wealthy donors? You know, I can't seem to remember you getting all worked up about what Republicans are doing. The same stuff is going on with them too.

The big difference between the parties is what is talked about, and more importantly, the long range goals of the donors. The Daily Kos article, while charged and partisan, says it like it is. Republican aren't poised to do anything but complain and obstruct until Republicans can be the majority in both houses of Congress. After that everything will change and go in high gear to steer their donor's desires and goals to the forefront. Just imagine what could happen for donors if the Republicans can win the presidency in November 2016.

Until then, we'll have a endless barrage of disdainful commentary targeted at President Obama and the Democrats in Congress. Look for obstruction on the ACA, immigration reform, infrastructure investments, environmental issues, investments in job creation, etc. The overarching Republican theme is "no" to anything that the Obama Administration wants to accomplish.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3456

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the average number of oligarchs at each dinner was Twenty, he would have raised 1.2mil per meal . A thousand of those would have raised $1.2 billion.

He may have found a way to pay off the national debt.

Of course he has had to go to dinner with oligarchs five nights a week for four years.
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