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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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bajaDean



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 947
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
BajaDean said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:

techno900 wrote:
Not to worry, if all goes as well, it will only cost a few hundred grand per enrollee in Oregon.
really this is such a stupid comment.

Please back it up with some reasoning.

do you just hate everything in this world that has anything to do with a liberal.

this is just pure right wing hate talk.
_________________
when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.


Clearly you don't know sarcasm when you see it, but nevertheless, I predict that there will not be enough people signing up for the ACA to sustain the program. The prediction is based on the general loathing of the program by the majority of the country (for many reasons), the excruciatingly small numbers that have signed up and the inconsequential penalties for not doing so.

Since you apparently think the program will be a success, what facts do you have to support your believe that millions and millions of unsubsidized healthy young people will sign up?

I for one would like to see the following data regarding the ACA sign ups.
1. The number of paid enrollees with subsidies.
2. The number of paid enrollees without subsidies.
2. The total funds collected by the insurance companies.
3. The total paid to the insurance companies in government subsidies.

Do you think our "transparent" government will share any of this information? Of course some of this isn't available yet since the program for the government to pay the insurance companies isn't in place yet. One day the data will be available, but will it be shared?


oh you mean that liberal media bad mouthing the program? actually that right wing owned media that hates anything liberal like many here.

you agree don't you that the media has been anything but liberal supporting only this subject to make people hate it.

and if people are on getting the right wing slant of cource they do not understand it.

If it was a liberal media they would focus on for instance the person I saw on msnbc who said their rate was about half and the policy was better. if you were championing the program to get involvement wouldn't you put on stories like that.

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bajaDean



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 947
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can we be competitive when out healtcare is at least 50% higher than any developed nation. This is a cost that is part of anything made in the USA, it is automatically that much more expensive than our competitors..

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS

US being at 18% of GDP.

netherlands being at 12% for the closes to us

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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1492

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see you conveniently dodge the issue regarding the ACA's success or failure down the road.

Do you think it will succeed? Is the ACA the program that will solve all of our health care problems, perceived or otherwise?

Just a simple response would be refreshing.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14313

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
I predict that there will not be enough people signing up for the ACA to sustain the program. The prediction is based on the general loathing of the program ...

and on polls,
on data gathered from the insurance exchanges and companies,
on the $6M cost PER ENROLLEE in Oregon,
on the 4:1 inflated numbers (ratio of shopping cart selections to actual purchases) Sebelius admitted under congressional pressure,
on forecasts from industry and academic giants, and
on sticker shock.

2/3 of those with a quote see a significant premium increase, and deductibles and copays are going through the roof; anecdotally, one man's deductible went from $10,000 to $25,000. Some huge insurers, including Aetna, have already informed Obama they will not comply with his public and private mandates, pressure, or requests to roll over and falsify claim data and/or grant essentially free coverage "to be accounted for later".

On the other team, there are BSNBC and a few far left fringe cave dwellers.

Guess which team makes more sense.
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bajaDean



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 947
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
I see you conveniently dodge the issue regarding the ACA's success or failure down the road.

Do you think it will succeed? Is the ACA the program that will solve all of our health care problems, perceived or otherwise?

Just a simple response would be refreshing.


I thought I was abundantly clear, as you alluded to the public is being brainwashed that it is bad. as long as the truth does not get out it will have issues. Did you know Rome was not built in a day?

and yes if we finally get to a proper healthcare system we may be at the costs of the rest of the world and have all in the plan. and hopefully we will not be at the bottom of the list for developed nations in most if not all metrics there is for healtcare of a nation. we should be at the top.

Can you name one metric of healthcare we are above everyone in the developed world. (other than being the most expensive)

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5884

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know techno900, when you talk about the ACA and its lack of success to date, the facet that you fail to recognize and acknowledge is the fact that the majority of folks that have healthcare insurance get it through their employer. That's still an integral part of the ACA. And when you get down to it, the price for health insurance through employers is generally the lowest in the US market. Why is that? Because of the broad mixture of age groups involved. The model works, because employers are paying the majority of the premiums as a job benefit for their employees.

So when you and others here on the right get really gleeful about the less than expected buyers in the independent market for insurance under the ACA, you're actually celebrating the idea of young folks being irresponsible in their election not to participate. What happens if these younger folks who don't buy health insurance get sick, or are involved in an accident? It drives up the cost of health care. What's smart about that? Why are Republicans so elated by a failure in our system? Totally brainless in my view. It's like celebrating poverty and ignorance.

Again, where are the Republican ideas to improve healthcare in America? Why aren't they involved in ideas and goals to change things for the better? Is it too easy to simply crap on those folks trying to implement responsible healthcare reform?
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3450

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No techno i dont believe that the ACA will solve all our healthcare problems.
It is likely there is no one on earth who does.

I recall Obama saying that it would not do that when he was first selling this conservative rooted program to the public.
If I recall he said it was step toward curbing a spiraling out of control health care system in this country.

He seems quite a reasonable man when you hear his actual thoughts out of his mouth instead of the fox talking heads filtered and edited version.

He said in that speech that a third of Americans were free loading off our taxes by going to emergency rooms then not paying.
He felt that everyone should be required to pay into the system by buying ins on the open market.

This seemed right to me and actually showed me he was embracing the conservative ideas in Romney care and the Heritage Foundations basic proposal from 1989.

Real life makes much more sense than the Talk version doesnt it?
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1492

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that BajaDean as well as keycocker and swchandler will not answer my question regarding the future of the ACA. Why is that? You guys just side track to other issues, apparently not wanting to deal with the ACA and its abundant problems.

I have said before that there are some good elements in the ACA, and I understand the concept, but it's complexities are beyond the governments capabilities, plus the dependence on healthy people paying for something they don't want or need all add up to spell disaster.

My predictions are becoming abundantly clear and the liberals just seem to be in denial.

swchandler said:
Quote:
the facet that you fail to recognize and acknowledge is the fact that the majority of folks that have healthcare insurance get it through their employer. That's still an integral part of the ACA.

Well, not yet! And when they are forced to pay for all the additional coverage mandated by Obama, they will likely pass on the additional cost to the employee rather than eat the costs. Of course, this depends on the size and financial strength of the company as to who actually eats the additional costs.

As you say:
Quote:
the price for health insurance through employers is generally the lowest in the US market. Why is that? Because of the broad mixture of age groups involved. The model works, because employers are paying the majority of the premiums as a job benefit for their employees.

Of course the model works, one reason is because employers make their own decisions/choices regarding what they offer to their employees based upon what they can or cannot afford. You know, the free enterprise system. I wouldn't be so sure about the "model" now that our nanny state is taking control. Like I said, I understand the concept, but it has serious faults.

Now, are there any liberals out there that care to respond regarding the future of the ASA?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14313

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides, everyone here knows that the government estimated and briefed the White House in early 2010 that those employers will drop health care coverage on 50-90 million people in 2014.

Then there's the simple matter of FREEDOM:
To choose our doctor and hospital.
To decide, with our doctor but without a GD bean counter in the way of actual medical care, whether we get a new knee or heart.
Whether to buy NO insurance, catastrophic only, or Cadillac Care.

And, oh yeah, this, from the National Center for Policy Analysis:
Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers and academics alike are beating the drum for a far larger government rôle in health care. Much of the public assumes their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. However, before turning to government as the solution, some unheralded facts about America's health care system should be considered.

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:
* Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
* Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
* More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
* Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8] [Wait times: a year in socialized medicine nations vs overnight in the U.S. for a specialist. I phone specialists directly and get in within a few days if my problem is not urgent. I consulted about 8 specialists in several weeks regarding my prostate cancer.]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [See the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1000

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

........and I wouldn't want it any other way, my crappy Canadian health care system that is. While it ain't perfect it is there for everyone equally. I don't feel that one's health should be a product of their wealth.

Perhaps you could touch on some other differences between Canada and the US. Like the lack of trailer parks, excessive poverty, lack of health related bankruptcies as they are all connected issues which often stem for the same problem.

Don't get me wrong though, I still think the ACA plan is horribly flawed but I think it is a step in the right direction.
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