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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5816

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I personally believe that we should have a Medicare/Medicad type system for all, but realistically, the right wouldn't support that. Republicans have a record of trying to privatize both Social Security and Medicare, so I seriously doubt that a "socialistic" plan would be acceptable.

The problem with any responsible plan is that it has to be paid for. The way that I see it, Canadians have accepted that. I wish we could.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14164

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
try to avoid making up things.

The archives, right up through today, prove them incapable of complying. That's about #2 in the list of reasons I am not interested in debate with them.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So there!
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
....
I think the conservatives are rightly concerned about the deficit, and some of this concern has been a result of the tea parties agenda. That's it, no more than that. .


No. TEA stands for taxed enough already, not "let's get out of debt". The primary agenda is to get rid of government, not improve it.

The financiers, beneficiaries and drivers of this "movement" are a few ultra rich. Ironically most TEA party voters are consuming much more in government resources than they contribute. (My guess, based on location and demographics)

Quote:

Where have I rejected or complained about SS, Medicare or Unemployment? I only said that for me, I could have done better if I had been able to keep my taxes that were paid into these programs. That's it, no more than that..


I hope your retirement funds are doing better than that. You are free to invest in the market. SS isn't meant to cover your retirement, it is supposed to provide a bottom for you, should all else fail, and you become a liability to the tax payer. Most people gratefully acknowledge the fact that SS somewhat isolates part of their financial future from the ups and downs of the market. The reason the new poor middle class has no savings beyond SS is a problem of the labor market and runaway expenses like medical and child rearing that saps the entire class of their investing capability. For most families making below 100k, it's hand-to-mouth living - not by choice.
Quote:

I don't trust the CBO, not because of any partisan politics, but because the complexities of what they try to do leaves too much room for error. That's it, no more than that..


Well which numbers do you trust? None at all? If we're discussing reality, not faith or ideology, we'll have to agree on a set of facts, don't we?

Quote:

You guys have an agenda, and that is to crucify anyone disagreeing with liberal politics. Try not to read between the lines and just respond to the typed comments I make. They are generally pretty simple and to the point. You don't have to agree, but do try to avoid making up things.


Come on, techno - I hope you are joking. No one here wants to crucify anyone. This is an argument among friends, not a crusade. Well, for most of us it is...

[edited for typos]

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Last edited by feuser on Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3554
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make a few ridiculous arguments, assign some opinions to people...then get shelled, then play victim. There you have it folks...the Republican playbook.
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youwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 589
Location: North Shore High School

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
techno900 wrote:
try to avoid making up things.

The archives, right up through today, prove them incapable of complying. That's about #2 in the list of reasons I am not interested in debate with them.


Danger, Will Robinson, Danger! Binary thought processing humanoid. Warning! Humanoid unable to consider alternate perspectives. Danger! Humanoid only seeks validation of opinion from echo chamber. Warning! Humanoid likely to discuss harness line length ad nauseam. Danger!
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5213

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When at first you state:

Quote:
By the way, I don't trust the CBO numbers


then you try a self-correct to:

Quote:
I don't trust the CBO, not because of any partisan politics, but because the complexities of what they try to do leaves too much room for error. That's it, no more than that.


You words have revealed a lot. It is not unreasonable to say that the projections of the CBO, or the GOP pollsters, leave room for error. When you use words like trust, and apply them to governmental institutions and the press that actually uses editors, you have established for all to see the filters you apply to information that doesn't meet your belief standards. The opposite of an open mind.

But this is even richer:

Quote:
You guys have an agenda, and that is to crucify anyone disagreeing with liberal politics. Try not to read between the lines and just respond to the typed comments I make. They are generally pretty simple and to the point. You don't have to agree, but do try to avoid making up things.


Techno makes up words to put in our mouth to ask us not to interpret the words he actually typed! No sense of irony or introspection in evidence. Very funny, but I doubt he intended it.
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jpbassking



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 2369
Location: Leo

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Actually, I personally believe that we should have a Medicare/Medicad type system for all, but realistically, the right wouldn't support that. Republicans have a record of trying to privatize both Social Security and Medicare, so I seriously doubt that a "socialistic" plan would be acceptable.

The problem with any responsible plan is that it has to be paid for. The way that I see it, Canadians have accepted that. I wish we could.


I had thought that is what the ACA was going to be. Back up insurance for those who cannot get it thru conventional means.

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5816

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I think back, I recollect that President Obama raised a challenge to Congress to craft meaningful healthcare reform, and it was represented by a list of goals that he saw as core to the effort. Was he advocating for the ACA as it now stands? I think that it is fair to say no.

As things worked out, the creation of the ACA was really the result of trying to appease Republicans by selecting a framework that was promoted by the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. Moreover, it was essentially a national version of the bi-partisan health reform that was successfully passed in Massachusetts, so there was reasonable precedence to refer to. No doubt, the ACA was healthcare reform that depended on the fundamentals of capitalism through use of the private insurance marketplace where companies could compete in an open marketplace.

I find it dishonest that Republicans are now characterizing the road to the ACA as a process that did include any opportunity or effort to include their ideas. If the Democrats where going to insist and railroad healthcare reform along liberal "socialist" lines, it would have been a single payer type plan that would have been modeled to mirror a Medicare/Medicaid framework to cover everyone. How easy is it to forget what really happened. If the truth was told, the Republicans were adamantly against any kind of substantial change. They didn't have the vision to anything other than tweak the status quo in minor ways. As I recollect, the only changes that they pushed for was portability of insurance across state lines and tort reform.
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youwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 589
Location: North Shore High School

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
As I recollect, the only changes that they pushed for was portability of insurance across state lines and tort reform.


National tort reform. Is it not hypocritical for Conservatives to advocate for national tort reform? I thought Conservatives were for limited government intrusion into the free market? Why should the nasty, intrusive government tell me, a victim of medical malpractice, how much a jury can award me in damages?

At minimum, Conservatives surely should support the concept of allowing States the right to decide such issues? What about that whole "state's rights" thing-a-ma-jig?
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