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windoggi
Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2743
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 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| reinerehlers wrote: | Another question,
Is it possible for some to agree that they actually have "legitimate" concerns about their quality of care, and the costs associated with the new program? |
Legitimate meaning intellectually honest questions? For sure... I know I do...but the answers I've found so far seem solid.
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| reinerehlers wrote: | Another question,
Is it possible for some to agree that they actually have "legitimate" concerns about their quality of care, and the costs associated with the new program? |
Absolutely. The winners in our system are those that have, or had, government or large employer sponsored health care plans. They stand to lose something...their elite status as conspicuous consumers of health care resources. These resources will be redistributed.
Will this translate to decreased quality of care? I do not believe so. There is little evidence that over utilization of healthcare provides better health. But, leveling the playing field is perceived to be a loss. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | There is little evidence that over utilization of healthcare provides better health. |
That's just random noise and a circular argument unless you define "over utilization". My VA PCP -- whom I just met yesterday because they change so often -- advised me just yesterday that I should stop assisting in my care and just let providers take care of me.
That's a recipe for disaster in any health care environment, simply because they have only minutes to hours to take care of each of us, whereas we have eight thousand hours each year to observe our health. The only doctor who ever told me I was wasting my time and his was proven dead wrong ... and I have proven many doctors dead wrong. They're PEOPLE, not God and not perfect machines. |
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windoggi
Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2743
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| Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | There is little evidence that over utilization of healthcare provides better health. |
That's just random noise and a circular argument unless you define "over utilization". My VA PCP -- whom I just met yesterday because they change so often -- advised me just yesterday that I should stop assisting in my care and just let providers take care of me.
That's a recipe for disaster in any health care environment, simply because they have only minutes to hours to take care of each of us, whereas we have eight thousand hours each year to observe our health. The only doctor who ever told me I was wasting my time and his was proven dead wrong ... and I have proven many doctors dead wrong. They're PEOPLE, not God and not perfect machines. |
Sorry our tax dollars aren't giving you the kind of care you deserve.
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nw30
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| mac wrote: | And you wonder why some of us don't take you seriously:
I | Quote: | 've always said "yes".
But it needs to actually improve things, like all the things that Obamacare was supposed to fix. But we were sold a monkey in lingerie that so far accomplishes nothing, and actually seems to make everything worse, cost, choice of doctors, getting everybody insured, none of that is going to happen.
At least I can't see any of that happening, but then again, I don't believe it was ever about healthcare in the first place, as I've said before. This was nothing but a power grab to control about 7% of the economy, |
Having been asked several times on the forum what should have been done, and whether or not any Republican legislators were trying to do anything, NW says yes, provides no specifics, and then lapses into a series of paranoid rants about the intentions being a power grab. Dude, check your medication! Or actually tell us something substantive about what should have been done instead. Scary thought, eh? Actually propose something constructive? Maybe one of your talk show hosts can tell you what to say. |
And what you believe in (Obamacare) is working just peachy, everybody is stoked and happy, I know you must be happy, you are happy aren't you?
How about you telling us why you're so happy? |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:43 am Post subject: |
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From the intellectual behind the party of no, which did have an idea about health care reform that they supported, until Obama adopted it, comes the question:
| Quote: | | How about you telling us why you're so happy? |
Readily. By the numbers, the ACA does the following:
1. Begins to insure many of the 40 million uninsured--that were costing us over $2000 per average health care plan anyway--through their drain on emergency services. This also helps local governments and non-profit hospitals who usually absorbed these costs.
2. Backs away from Bush-era limitations on preventing the use the clout of Federal purchasing to reduce health care costs, particularly for drugs.
3. Begins to implement a provision signed by Bush, but not implemented through regulations until now, that requires insurance companies to cover mental illness. That law, passed in 2008, has been resisted by insurance companies, and implementation of that law is, in fact, part of the reasons that many health care plans must be changed and are being cancelled. Of course, those who hate Obama, and blame things done by Bush on Obama, have no knowledge of this. Thus the sobriquet revived, "know nothings."
4. Begins moving the health care approach in the portion of health care funded by the government--50% when the law was passed--away from payment for services and toward payment for outcomes. A market based approach that is conceptually solid--even if first suggested by Republicans and implemented by Romney.
5. Establishes a number of different pilot programs intended to evaluate, at a larger scale, preventive care approaches commonly used by Kaiser (e.g. statin drugs and colon screening to reduce the two leading causes of death) and cost reduction approaches.
6. Ends the practice of insurance companies in walking away from the insured who contract chronic diseases, and mandates that they be allowed to retain their insurance.
When the dust settles on the problems with the web site, and people whose insurance was cancelled get new insurance, it will be clear that some folks got better insurance, some folks got the same insurance at a lower price, and some folks got better insurance at a higher price. It will be impossible to tell how much of the higher price for insurance would have happened anyway--but Republican Obama haters won't care because they don't pay much attention.
For the adults in the room, the furor by folks like NW, and the name calling of Obama, will be seen for what it is--a bunch of poorly informed, hate-fueled awful-izing.
Feel free to actually put some thought into what you might think would work better. It is pretty easy to actually find the ACA on-line, and it can be skimmed to get a little real information about what it contains. Some people think that having an open mind is one of the responsibilities of citizenship. |
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windoggi
Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2743
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:50 am Post subject: |
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That's just what I was going to say.
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | The winners in our system are those that have, or had, government ... health care plans. |
That remains to be seen, considering the tens (soon to be hundreds?) of thousands of doctors who already refuse all four of my health insurance plans even before the ACA actually begins.
Fortunately -- I hope -- this law may be reversed so we can actually FIX our health care and insurance system rather than turning them over to the least competent institution in our nation. Now that at least a hundred million people clearly see that Obama waged an orchestrated, publicly recorded, deliberate, program of over 24 outright lies over more than three years about keeping our plans and doctors, still refuses to even acknowledge those lies or fix them or apologize for them, and is now lying about his 24+ lies, even his own Senators, independent voters, unions, and news media are turning against him in defense of their own credibility.
Unfortunately, he's not running again, but why should Hillary be even one iota better? |
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MalibuGuru
Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 9300
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Some more Obama care headlines..
REPORT: 52 million Americans have lost or will lose health insurance...
'This is what betrayal looks like'...
FLASHBACK 2010: Obama Admits Millions 'Might Have to Change Coverage'...
Blame game as insurers dump doctors...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAG: How Obama blew entire past year...
NC Health Exchange: Only 1 Person Signed Up So Far, But Hasn't Paid
Lone Applicant Already Targeted By Scammer...
Only 5 in DC?
Issa subpoenas White House tech official for hearing...
Woman Who Championed Obamacare Stunned After Losing Insurance Plan... |
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DanWeiss
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2296
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Before ACA: thousands of people either lost coverage or were denied renewal of an identical policy.
After ACA, so far: thousands of people either lost coverage or were denied renewal of an identical policy.
Nothing has changed, yet the far right blames it on the President. That's anti-intellectual and entirely partisan.
The method of criticism of this President resembles a pig pile. Somehow, policies that change count as policy cancellation.
Well, no surprise. Of course policies changed, if for no other reasons than the preexisting condition exception was eliminated and parity between mental and physical health was mandated. Policy 1 allowed the old stuff. Policy 2 cannot deny via the old way. Policy 2 is not Policy 1, but people insist that's a violation of Obama's promise.
Intellectually dishonest.
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