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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5888

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NW30, I have to say that I have a totally different interpretation of what President Obama has said in the past about healthcare reform and the ACA. I think we would agree that he has said things weren't entirely true in hindsight, but that's not to say that he deliberately lied or intended to deceive anyone as you so adamantly claim. The ACA is needed law designed to provide more comprehensive healthcare reform and coverage for more Americans as a whole, and for the most part, what Obama has said in the past is true. I find it notable that you never focus on what is true, and instead try to find anything that can be construed or twisted into a falsehood. It's your mindset. Kind of like a lawyer nitpicking for anything, no matter how insignificant, to promote a hateful argument against President Obama and ACA.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5356

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha? Are you ever pathetic. Impossible for you to structure an argument so you just call Obama names. And you can't figure out why it earns you insults.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1799
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swc, ah, no, two things, 1) I have no hate for BHO, the man, only what he's trying to do to "fundamentally change this country", there is no need for you to adopt mac's vision that anybody who doesn't like what BHO is trying to do, is filled with nothing but hate for the man.
And 2) What's not to believe about him intentionally lying to his 'subjects'?
Forbes: White House Predicted in 2010 That 93 Million Would Lose Their Health Plans Under ObamaCare
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2013/10/31/forbes-obama-officials-predicted-2010-93-million-would-lose-health-pl#ixzz2jdVH2yJd

Unless you think that the article is nothing but a bunch of lies, if so, then there is no hope for you as well.

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I don't drink the 'cool' aid, I drink tequila, it's more honest.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5888

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NW30, I read both of Sheppard's articles. Nothing he said changes how I feel. In my earlier post I pretty much gave you my view of things. I find it amazing that many folks like yourself don't look at the positives in the ACA. Instead, you focus on any foothold for an argument, and then blow everything out of proportion.

Do I think that Sheppard's articles are "a bunch of lies"? No, not really. Facts can be used to tell almost any story, but that doesn't mean that the story is true. I like to look at the focus and the intent of a position. The one that you, Sheppard, Bard and isobars are promoting is way too shallow, and the target goal is simply ending the ACA and healthcare reform along with it. There is nothing else behind the curtain. Republicans have been shamelessly trying to kill the ACA any way they can, and this current theater is only the latest attempt to do so. Like I've said so many times before, Republicans don't have the ideas or the leadership it takes to make them a reality. They promise a lot, but they can never really deliver.

Lastly, the way I see it, the idea that you have no hate for President Obama doesn't float. That's because I'm listening to what you're saying, and it has nothing to do with mac and his opinion about you. When you refer to Obama as our "liar in chief", or use other disdainful commentary about him, you're showing a lack of respect for him and the office he serves. As unhappy as I was with Reagan, G W Bush or Cheney, I didn't resort to the kind of dialogue that you regularly utter about Obama. You can disagree with someone's politics, but still do it in a less hateful way.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2703

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Instead, you focus on any foothold for an argument, and then blow everything out of proportion.

SWC, don't knock yourself out over this.

Extremists like NW, Mikey, Mr. G.... they don't actually care one way or the other about the ACA, Benghazi, the NSA, birth certificates, or any of that crap they splash around. If they had nothing else to scream about, they'd complain that BHO hated pigs every time he had a BLT for lunch.

These extremists just don't like BHO in the White House for an obvious reason that they cannot say in public.

And they REALLY hate it when people call them "racist." Their loudest defense is "YOU SAID THAT WORD, NOT ME, SO IT MUST BE YOU!!"

Just watch.
.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3607
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously, NW, Bard, and others here despise Mr Obama, and the ACA...thats fine. But I thought I would share a quote from their standard bearer of the GOP...a quote which summarizes the feeling about socialized GOVT. enjoy...it's quite funny....almost hard to believe

"If you look at China," Bachmann said, "they don't have food stamps. If you look at China, they're in a very different situation. ... They don't have the modern welfare state. And China's growing."
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5356

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is well said, and defines NW to a fault:

Quote:
The Noise Around Obamacare
Nov 4, 2013 E. J. Dionne Jr.
WASHINGTON -- The ace political and baseball prognosticator Nate Silver titled his book about prediction and statistical mastery "The Signal and the Noise." Rarely has it been more important to distinguish between the two than in the uproar over the launch of the Affordable Care Act.

As Silver put it, "The signal is the truth. The noise is what distracts us from the truth."

The truth about this controversy is that there is a broad debate in our country over how much government should do to correct for market outcomes that leave so many Americans without enough income, opportunity or access to the essentials of modern life, notably health insurance.

Supporters of Obamacare, including those who wish it had gone even further, believe that social justice requires government to give significant assistance to those who find themselves on the wrong end of an economic system that is producing an increasingly unequal society.

Opponents of Obamacare want government to let the market do what the market does. That's why the program's critics have not come up with a plausible alternative to covering the uninsured -- and why many in their ranks have been trying to hack away at Medicare and Medicaid. Their overarching purpose is to get government out of the way. If the market generates vast inequalities, this must be because such inequalities maximize efficiency.

Thus, foes of the Affordable Care Act aren't against it because its website worked badly or because the president once said that everybody could keep their current policies when it turned out that some in the small individual insurance market got cancellation notices. For those trying to kill the law, such noise is designed to distract attention from what they really think, which is that we should let non-elderly Americans sink or swim in the insurance arrangements that existed before Obamacare.


Read more at http://www.arcamax.com/politics/ejdionnejr/s-1417573-872427#Cl8J7JYIzZBCCCJ6.99


Manufactured outrage, real prejudice.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5356

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's get a little more specific and look at the statutory language in the ACA. Section 1251 provides:

Quote:
SEC. 1251. PRESERVATION OF RIGHT TO MAINTAIN EXISTING
COVERAGE.
(a) NO CHANGES TO EXISTING COVERAGE.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—Nothing in this Act (or an amendment
made by this Act) shall be construed to require that an individual
terminate coverage under a group health plan or health
insurance coverage in which such individual was enrolled on
the date of enactment of this Act.
(2) CONTINUATION OF COVERAGE.— ‘Except as provided in paragraph (3),
with respect to a group
health plan or health insurance coverage in which an individual
was enrolled on the date of enactment of this Act, this subtitle
and subtitle A (and the amendments made by such subtitles)
shall not apply to such plan or coverage, regardless of whether
the individual renews such coverage after such date of enactment.


To describe Obama's statements, which rely on this statutory language, as a lie is simply another ad hominem attack. There is clearly something more complicated going on, as this section also references other section, and it appears that the Act also set up certain minimum standards. It would be fair to say that Obama was mistaken, or that the regulations promulgated under the Act failed to reflect this protection. But nothing but vitriol and ad hominem attacks are sufficient for the neo-Birchers.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1799
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="swchandler"]

When you refer to Obama as our "liar in chief", or use other disdainful commentary about him, you're showing a lack of respect for him and the office he serves. quote]

No denying that, because he has to earn respect in order to receive it.

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I don't drink the 'cool' aid, I drink tequila, it's more honest.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="nw30"]
swchandler wrote:


When you refer to Obama as our "liar in chief", or use other disdainful commentary about him, you're showing a lack of respect for him and the office he serves. quote]

No denying that, because he has to earn respect in order to receive it.


You'd think that 65 million votes affirming his Presidency in 2012 would take care of that.

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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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