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The Ecstasy and the Agony
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5816

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900, I think that you're spot on in your comments. It's becoming extremely clear to me that I need to start a strength maintenance program. Once you hit your 60s, it's amazing how much of earlier youthful strength you lose.

Regarding use of analgesics, other than the single enteric coated aspirin that I take for my heart health, I rarely, if ever, take them. Of course, I do get very sore if I haven't been sailing much, but I think that living with a little muscle soreness is a good thing. Keeps you tuned into your reality.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14164

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
I am not doing weights to build strength, but I do what I do to MAINTAIN strength.

Watch that very closely. The literature emphatically cautions that that goal leads to certain decline. It's right up there with "converting fat to muscle".
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mchaco1



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 643

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
mchaco1 wrote:
I like the paleo diet the best, I feel great on it and everyone I know who does it long term looks like a superhero.

I've been very impressed with the Paleo books I've read, and with the results I've gotten from their core principles. However, there are huge differences between two Paleo schools of thought, including whole grains vs no grains. I've been unable to resolve that disparity by literature research or personal experience. Their logic persuasively says we should eat virtually no grains, most of the mainstream nutritional community says just the opposite.

Damn, I miss pancakes!

I consider that part just semantics... people get into some kind of mindset that the paleo diet must be historically accurate, but thats not really the point for most of us. I think the most important thing is that most of your calories should come from meat and vegetables, and that sugar/caffeine/alcohol/dairy should not be in there (of course some choose to ignore that last bit Wink ) I did the whole no sugar/caffeine/ alcohol/dairy thing for like 3 months and it did work pretty good and I started waking up earlier, but once I started living in the 4runner half the week I couldnt keep it up. I dont think grains are a big deal as long as they are not only a supplemental portion of you intake and not a main source, and preferably wild grains.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14164

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mchaco1 wrote:
most of your calories should come from meat and vegetables

I don't think grains are a big deal as long as they are not only a supplemental portion of you intake and not a main source, and preferably wild grains.

"No grains" is a primary tenet of most Paleo gurus, because, they say, Paleo man, thus genetically very similar modern man, cannot properly digest or assimilate them and modern grains are bastards hybridized for production efficiency rather than nutrition.

And I presume you meant vegetables and fruit (and nuts), not meat. It's also important, they say, that potatoes and bananas belong on the nearly verboten sugar list along with grains, whole or refined, as all of those tax our sugar metabolic system comparably. All the Paleo (and oncology) books I've read emphasize fairly low meat intake, just enough to get whatever required complete protein our other sources don't provide. Every source I've seen or consulted leads me to think our overall eating plan should begin with sufficient protein, then add a wide variety of unlimited vegetables, then some fruit and nuts. Some sources add whole grains and dairy. Most Paleo books and certainly "Wheat Belly" say the OPs aches and pains could easily be due to grains, especially wheat.
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mchaco1



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 643

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
mchaco1 wrote:
most of your calories should come from meat and vegetables

I don't think grains are a big deal as long as they are not only a supplemental portion of you intake and not a main source, and preferably wild grains.

"No grains" is a primary tenet of most Paleo gurus, because, they say, Paleo man, thus genetically very similar modern man, cannot properly digest or assimilate them and modern grains are bastards hybridized for production efficiency rather than nutrition.

And I presume you meant vegetables and fruit (and nuts), not meat. It's also important, they say, that potatoes and bananas belong on the nearly verboten sugar list along with grains, whole or refined, as all of those tax our sugar metabolic system comparably. All the Paleo (and oncology) books I've read emphasize fairly low meat intake, just enough to get whatever required complete protein our other sources don't provide. Every source I've seen or consulted leads me to think our overall eating plan should begin with sufficient protein, then add a wide variety of unlimited vegetables, then some fruit and nuts. Some sources add whole grains and dairy. Most Paleo books and certainly "Wheat Belly" say the OPs aches and pains could easily be due to grains, especially wheat.

Most of what ive seen is based on "paleo man didnt eat grains so we shouldnt" . Ive seen meat emphasized over nuts for protein in what ive read, but I havent read a huge amount of information. Ive also seen fruits as good but in moderate amounts. It definitely appears that wheat is a problem for most people, but wild grain, like wild rice are less problematic. I stopped wheat/grains at the same time as sugar/alcohol/caffeine and it was pretty good. Im trying to get the motivation to try it again. My description is my own version, not necessarily any mainstream version.. I think some people are more suited to others based on their own genetics, meat agrees with me and my blood work always comes back great whenever I get a checkup.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14164

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had no problems with lots of meat ... until I got terminal cancer which many studies suspect is promoted by meat.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1474

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iso said:
Quote:
Watch that very closely. The literature emphatically cautions that that goal leads to certain decline. It's right up there with "converting fat to muscle".

It's not hard to keep track of decline, progress or status quo, you just look at the numbers on the plates, machines or dumbbells. What happens pretty much depends on the frequency of lifting and sailing, and I generally have no problem maintaining the status quo. If I wanted to lift at least 3 days a week and did more sets, I could increase strength, but I see no purpose in that and would increase the risk of injury.

However, on the long haul, there is a decline. I don't lift what I did 10 or 20 years ago and expect that in 10 years, I will be lifting less than today. Some of this is caution, being very careful not to let the ego create an injury that would keep me off the water. Most of it is just getting old - bummer.

I should add that I eat no special diet, just whatever I want, but the volume stays pretty low. I don't overdo anything and maintain about 10% body fat. I take no prescriptions, but I do take a few vitamins.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 2644

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plenty said already but just a couple of additional items:

- consider buying a stretching strap (Amazon - about $12 with instruction booklet). It's a good aid to a thorough stretching routine. I stretch for about 45 minutes a day. It makes a huge difference.

- also consider a high density foam roller for deep muscle massage using your own body weight. It breaks down the calcium deposits that accumulate in the muscles and cause aches and pains. Also releases the IT band in the outer thigh which eases knee/ hip/ lower back pain. Be prepared for some teeth clenching when you first use it. Plenty of instructional videos on YouTube.

- keep moving. Muscles atrophy at a fast pace as we advance in years, and generally, joints don't respond well to inactivity.

There is no reason we can't all maintain most of our strength and most of our flexibility as we age. However, unlike the young whippersnappers, we need to be relentlessly disciplined in order to do that.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14164

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
If I wanted to lift at least 3 days a week and did more sets, I could increase strength, but I see no purpose in that and would increase the risk of injury ... However, on the long haul, there is a decline ... I should add that I eat no special diet, just whatever I want

You clearly haven't gone to the BodyByScience website or read his books. Here's a link to its best part:
http://www.bodybyscience.net/home.html/?page_id=2
It will change your life if you give it a chance, as it (and many similar books and programs from the past 70 years based on the same principles) very convincingly disputes everything you've believed for years or decades.

If your diet doesn't include enough complete protein, much of your gym time and effort is wasted and windsurfing will consume muscle.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14164

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
unlike the young whippersnappers, we need to be relentlessly disciplined in order to [maintain strength and flexibility].

Not only disciplined, but smarter. Every month of personal experience and many new books on exercise physiology and nutrition reinforce the dramatic changes I've made in my workouts and nutrition and suggested in this and other forums. Many doctors, nutritionists, fitness trainers and testers, workout logs, and sailing buddies have substantiated and/or commented on the obvious results I've achieved by working out MUCH smarter and MUCH less with a 100% reduction in injuries and tweaks.

That discipline you mention has at least two facets: keeping at it and doing it right. They are independently, jointly, and synergistically vital to efficient, long term, injury-free success. The first facet is obvious; the second is disparagingly misunderstood by exercisers, is self-admittedly mis-taught by many trainers, and/or simply requires more effort than most exercisers have the discipline to pursue even for the necessary few minutes. Based on extensive research, experimentation, and results, my workout program has dramatically changed towards a level of effort easily in the most intense 98th percentile AND shortest 98th percentile of all the patrons in my big family gym* patrons. The head trainer tells me I'm easily the fittest guy there anywhere near my age, and physiological testing places me at the threshold of elite athlete fitness, not bad for roughly 4 hours of lifting and 12 hours of interval training ... per year ... safely.

* That "family gym" caveat is an important reality check. There are a few pro athletes here and maybe a couple of people pursuing the various popular brand-name ultimate fitness routines, but most patrons here are just general public people staying healthy. I don't claim equivalence to highly dedicated, max effort, near-pro jocks, but I can outlast most of them at hard play or in the gym. That said, one life-long lifter who tried the Body by Science 7-minutes-under-tension whole-body strength routine said it was the toughest thing he had ever tried.

BTW, my 67-yo, morbidly obese wife and her trainer are also very pleased with her progress with the Body by Science program.

FWIW, I've also cut way back on stretching based on highly credible books which insist it is VERY often overdone, that virtually its only valid purpose outside gymnastics or ballet is correcting specific medical problems such as medical rehab or medically impaired ROM.
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