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Cam Vs. No-Cam (Again)
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2444

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plenty of different ways to pump, unweight, ride the least windswell downhill, shake it, lead it, use the leech, use the RAF effect, but first of all, you gotta know how, and decide TO.....
RAF effect, shake it slightly, maybe 1 foot max, even front and back hand pressure, making the sail form to deform from static to loaded, and it goes back to static by itself. This get you more results than you would get with a cam, since it adds half a pump to each of yours. Timed of course, not just neantherdahl pumping.
This talk about wave/freestyle vs freeride sails is useless here, since we aren't comparing surf sails with Formula sails. Only in freeride/slalom is a no cam used compareably against a cammed sail.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1231

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
The cam sails seem to pump better where I sail. Seems to make sense since the sail is more rigid. Camless sails seem to deform when I pump them, and energy input doesn't seem to translate to forward movement well.


As a practical matter, camless sails allow a windsurfer to pump to a plane better. What you're seeing locally (what any of us sees locally) is affected by who we're sailing with. Concerns about the sail deforming are far outweighed by the control and feel that the camless sailor has. The rigidity and stable foil that cams provide fight you when you're using touch to goose a board and rig.

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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2444

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Camless sails do not deform when you pump them. The opposite, they form into the same sail draft camber as a cammed sail, and then when not loaded, they add to pumping by then deforming to a fatter foil. That's what ADDS to the pumping effect.
As said, many bad recreational sailors use no cams. Most hot shot slalom sailors use cams. Don't mean cams are faster OR plane up sooner, but they do go upwind higher, and downwind lower.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 6025

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2,

Yeah, you extend and pull back with your rear foot, as that actively engages the fin and allows you to pump the water conceptually much as you would do with air and the sail. Again, it's a subtle kind of input rather than a highly animated sort of thing. It's something that you do to really get things moving, or during lulls to give that little bit extra until the next gust, particularly if you want to keep a high angle of attack.

The type of fin used really makes a big difference. Deeper high aspect slalom and course slalom fins really give you great response pumping, particularly with fins 45 to 50cm and up. Some folks tend to forget that the fin reacts in concert with the sail, board and yourself to leverage the different kinds of power available.
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LeeD



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 1048

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yes, given a set windspeed, at it's maximum, you can hold a fully cammed race sail easier than a 7+ battenned top end freeride sail. That's' why real racers use the cammed sail, they can hold the bigger sail to get thru turbelance and to create turbulence behind them.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1231

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeeD wrote:
And yes, given a set windspeed, at it's maximum, you can hold a fully cammed race sail easier than a 7+ battenned top end freeride sail. That's' why real racers use the cammed sail, they can hold the bigger sail to get thru turbelance and to create turbulence behind them.


Yes. Only racers really need cams.

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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2444

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOU said that, not me.
It's personal preference. Even back in the late '80's, some supposedly fast sailors used no cam sails. Most speed trial's guys used both, and never found one clearly superior to the other.
Slalom sailors, the serious racers, need cams to get back upwind, after their 8 ball downwind heats. But not for the actual race part.
Course racing always favored cammed sails.
Still, nobody can say definitively whether cammed sails are faster, or whether they even plane up sooner, because too many variables are present in each catagory.
Heck, it's still up in the air what is faster, a dedicated slalom board or a fast freeride? No theory or mathmetician's here, what's faster out there in the water. And for whom?
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1231

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="zirtaeb"]YOU said that, not me. /quote]

LOL. Cool. I'm agreeing with you point by point in this thread.

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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
Camless sails do not deform when you pump them. The opposite, they form into the same sail draft camber as a cammed sail, and then when not loaded, they add to pumping by then deforming to a fatter foil. That's what ADDS to the pumping effect.


Did you make a typo somewhere here? You say that it deforms and doesn't deform in the same paragraph.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3112
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
U2U2U2,

Yeah, you extend and pull back with your rear foot, as that actively engages the fin and allows you to pump the water conceptually much as you would do with air and the sail. Again, it's a subtle kind of input rather than a highly animated sort of thing. It's something that you do to really get things moving, or during lulls to give that little bit extra until the next gust, particularly if you want to keep a high angle of attack.

The type of fin used really makes a big difference. Deeper high aspect slalom and course slalom fins really give you great response pumping, particularly with fins 45 to 50cm and up. Some folks tend to forget that the fin reacts in concert with the sail, board and yourself to leverage the different kinds of power available.


yes this is what I saw Shredbob do and subsequently tried, for him it seemed to work a tread, me not so well, but then I recall falling off my 2 wheeler the first time I rode it Sad

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