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Cam Vs. No-Cam (Again)
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LeeD



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 1048

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On any given day, I plane thru and out of at least 70% of my jibes. Mostly with a no cam, but also with cam sails I've gotten used to.
I've planed into, thru, and out of jibes 100% when powered, the tide is low, and I do less than 60 jibes. Mostly non cammed sails.
Maybe it's me, but using cammed sails doesn't raise my percentage of planing out jibes, even if I use them 4 days in a row. The quicker flip of a no cam offsets the extra power going into your jibes of a cammed sail.
Makes no difference for broad reaching, reaching, or close reaching.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3114
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if your house is on fire , pumping is a good thing. One other good thing comes to mind but this a all age forum

regards the negative remarks about just about anything from some posters,

a. they do it almost all the time

b.you see where it says author on the left side of the page, thats who wrote that post

c. you only have yourself to blame if you actually read it , after paying attention to b.

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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 345

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey u2u2u2,
Great post................. For me, the soft feel of my non camber sails lets me pump up on a plane with ease. It feels like I get a full scoop of air with the flex of the sail. Every one talks about the top end wind range of the cam sails and its true. That said, would you like to be on the edge with your 7.5 race sail or very comfortable blasting on your 5.5 freeride sail. Its all good either way....
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LeeD



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 1048

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're too lazy to bother to pump, rig a bigger sail.
If you don't know HOW to pump a no cam sail, don't say it can't be done.
I agree with Novann, no cam sails pump great, but different.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone ever said that you can't pump a no cam sail.

You can get up a hill on a mountain bike with a soft suspension, but the stiffer bike would do better. For anyone who is curious, and is willing to approach things with an open mind, try pumping a no cam sail while on the shore. Loosen the outhaul to get a soft rig, tighten it to get a stiffer rig. See what you think.

For those of you saying that the technique for pumping a no-cam sail is different, can you give us more details? And I'm talking about pumping that would get me from subplaning to planing.

It still cracks me up about how many comments are completely off-topic.
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speedysailor



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
Man, it's hard to keep everyone focussed on a question! All this talk of ease of rigging, top end speed, freestyle, mast wear and such is interesting, but wasn't the topic.
I don't pump because it's too hard on the shoulders. Is there a focused, too? Whatever, I have this interesting article in Italian that is titled Camber, Camber not. It uses my sails, the North Sting and Spectro for examples. Unfortunately, I have not been very successful at the translation. However, I have a new question regarding the topic. To start off, the placement and number of cambers will make a difference. The cut of the sail, too, will change the performance of sails. Cambered sails tend to have more sail in the foot than the head compared to non. Sometimes the lower batten doesn't have an inducer. Some sails have one camber induced batten in an area of the sail where a competitor has two. Here are some quotes from the '03 Aerotech owners manual & rigging instructions, >>The most common error that we see in rigging is not enough downhaul tension. Another common problem is the impression that some people have about "power". The assumption that a sail with a big "belly" or "full" shape is powerful and will give the sail better power is not entirely true, but it will compromise sail performance if rigged in this manner.<<page 43. >>The adjustable outhaul system along with a downhaul setting that allows the leech to be fully opened will provide the most range out of your sail by allowing the sailor to vary the position of the twist with the outhaul while sailing. The outhaul can be tensioned for upwind courses to allow for a tighter leech and flatter profile. On downwind courses the outhaul can be loosened to allow the head to twist more and give the sail a slightly fuller shape.<< p.44. So, are camber induced sails better upwind than RAF? WHY?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14632

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speedysailor wrote:
Please let me add my two cents worth which may bring the discussion to a more expert level.

the claim that you don't need camber induceds in a sail under 7 sq. meters is almost as ridiculous

"Need" isn't the issue for many thousands of sailors. Who "needs", for example, flat tires, zits, or diarrhea?

No comment on the opening sentence. There's no joke here; I just wanted to repeat it.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 6034

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you want keep the topic on pumping, do you ever think about pumping the fin? While you might want to center solely on just pumping the sail, you'll get the best results by pumping both the sail and the fin.

Personally, I view highly animated pumping as a waste of time and energy. So often you see folks pumping madly in too little wind. They can often get planing, but quickly drop off a plane as soon as they stop pumping. Also, that kind of pumping scenario is a ready recipe for ending up downwind from your launch. What works best for me is subtle pumping in combination with a larger sail and fin. Why pump like crazy on a 6.0 with a small fin when you can rig a 7.5 and a bigger fin and easily plane up using a few subtle inputs to the sail and fin?

Lastly, do you really want to decide what kind of sail is best solely based on pumping? The total is always the sum of the parts, and that's why so many of us brought up the many attributes and liabilities between cambered and RAF sails. Also, even if consider cambered or RAF sails alone, there are many factors that affect performance. An 8 to 10 batten full race sail with 5-7 cambers, is a totally different animal than a 6-7 batten freeride sail with 2-3 cambers. The same can be sail about the number of battens and their placement in RAF sails. Hell, there is a ton of difference between the performance of a 60% carbon versus a 100% carbon mast just considering their weight and reflex response. Moreover, there is a world of difference between aluminum and carbon boom, with the latter being far superior especially in combination with larger sails. Need I mention the design and quality of the fins one uses?
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3114
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

by pumping the fin I take you to mean, foot pressure sort of sliding the board slightly back and forth, side ways ?

Shredbob of East Coast fame , I saw in a video doing this quite animated
and I must say it works

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14632

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does lifting a board off the water (via footstraps) a few inches and setting it back down planing. It worked with my longboards 30 years ago, and still works with sinkers, assuming planing was within reach anyway ... just as with pumping. I'd guess that breaks surface tension beneath the hull.
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