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Cam Vs. No-Cam (Again)
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Ezzy Cheetah no cam sails. My best buddy uses Ezzy Lion two cam sails. We both have Tabou Rocket 115 Ltd boards. We weigh just about the same. We often switch sails just for fun. He thinks the cams help him. I don't care for them much. Top end speed is the same. Point of sail, I seem to get to wind as good or a bit better than him. He seems to get thru the lulls a bit better. I get on a plane sooner than him. I pump my sail and bear off a bit. He does not. With the Ezzy sails, rigging a cam sail is not any issue. He is done before me most of the time. It is easier to insert the mast into the sleeve on the Lion. Wear on the mast is something to think about. My mast shows very little. I like the Cheetah is much better in the turns. All in all its a wash except the mast wear. I think in reall big sails, the cams might be the way to go. 7.0 and down, I would go no cam every time. Our biggest sails, he has a 7.0 and I have a 6.5. I keep up or pass on any given day....
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm amazed at some of the comments.

Let's focus on the pumping. Camless sails seem to really deform when I pump them. Cam sails don't as much. On mountain bikes, a soft suspension isn't good for acceleration because energy goes into deforming all the parts. Shouldn't it be the same with sails? It sure feels that way to me.

My head is so swollen right now. The idea that I'm using inferior equipment and still pumping onto a plane faster than everyone else, and planing through lulls better than everyone else doesn't make sense. I'm not that good. At least, I didn't think so.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
The idea that I'm using inferior equipment ...

It's not really about superiority/inferiority as it is about preferences, validly biased by specific performance factor pros and cons vs each sailor's sailing environment and style. Ford/Chevy, blondes/brunettes, steak/ice cream, etc.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I guess there are folks who 'prefer' to have nothing happen when they pump, and folks who 'prefer' to drop off a plane in lulls. I never thought about that. Some folks on the shore DO seem to love to whine and complain about the wind.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13998

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
Yeah. I guess there are folks who 'prefer' to have nothing happen when they pump, and folks who 'prefer' to drop off a plane in lulls. I never thought about that. Some folks on the shore DO seem to love to whine and complain about the wind.

Has it not occurred to you there's infinitely more to WSing than planing, there are many other ways to plane through lulls than sticking I-beams in your sails, that "choosing" does not equate to "whining ", that significant pumping is for those who rigged too small, and that merely planing bores the hell out of many of us?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5746

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I have found with cambered sails is that they are superior going to windward offering a much higher angle of attack. Also, as others have pointed out, they cruise through lulls easier and they can handle being overpowered with much more aplomb. However, despite these advantages, these days I much prefer RAF sails. They rig easier, weigh less, jibe better, prepare for waterstarts a lot easier, and fare significantly better launching in surf environments.

Lastly, I have to agree that cambers can wear heavily on your mast. The only time I ever broke the top section of a mast was due to camber wear. But, I have to say that was during the days prior to cambers incorporating rollers as part of their design. These days I would think that modern camber designs would pose less wear problems on the mast.
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speedysailor



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, what a wealth of opinion in this thread. Please let me add my two cents worth which may bring the discussion to a more expert level. What I have found comparing my 2 N.P. V-8 (8 and 9) camber induced sails and my 2 Loft 02 Sails (8.4 and 9.6) would be that I think I get more power out of the V-8's. I also see a larger luff pocket in the V-8's when all are fully rigged. High end stability is also something I think I see more of in my cambered sails, and I own a few of them sized from 5.0 to 11 sq. meters in area. Now, for a few years I have been using adjustable outhauls with all my big sails and this summer made good use of them with the Loft sails and the fully cambered VMG, the 11 meter sail. I find the difference in fully outhauled and loosely outhauled in the RAF loft sails rather dramatic. In addition to other factors, it seemed somewhat of a stability issue the last time out. A flat sail would make upwind sailing easier for me. It was also something recommended with the outhaul package. It also seemed stabler than the fully pocketed sail. Consequently, I have concluded that this isn't a simple Black and White comparison, cammed vs. RAF. It depends on how the sails are rigged. Furthermore, the claim that you don't need camber induceds in a sail under 7 sq. meters is almost as ridiculous as the claim that you don't benefit from having an adjustable outhaul under 7. Although they can be some trouble rigging, my 5.6 Arrows Tomahawk race sail and 6.0 North Spectro (Slalom/race) are fantastic sails due to their camber inducers. I love the stability they offer in high winds. I will use them up to 30 m.ph. of wind and not have the troubles I have had with my North RAF Sting (Slalom/freeride) 6.0. In fact, I have posted about using an old 6.0 World Sail with camber inducers which predates loose leaches and finding it much to my enjoyment. It's the low end grunt and high end control which makes me buy them.

Last edited by speedysailor on Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2365

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said before, I'm ambivelent when it comes to cambers or no.
I sail with some of the faster slalom sailiors of anywhere, at BerkeleyCa.
Most times, if I rig within a meter of them, it's dead even, and I usually plane up earlier (same body weight).
Pumping a no cam is DIFFERENT than pumping a cammed race or slalom sail. The no cam gives you the draft and then flattens out, doubling your pump distance. Use it. A cam sail has a stable lower area, so you pump mainly using the leech.
Top end is the same, for reaching. Upwind favors cam, as does deep downwind. Broad don't matter.
As for the amount of wind..... I'm 150 lbs., usually ride 95 liter boards. I can take a 6.5 cam or no cam up to around 28 in the gusts, when almost everyone is on 4.7's powered up. And that is NOT using my more stable no cams, Diablos and Noas. That's with a Koa, a mid range sail.
Most of you think no cam sails are slow because you pass all those folks using no cam sails. They are beginners! You will pass someone, anyone, using a NPNova sail. Now sail with someone who can jibe 100%, using the faster stuff. Don't matter what sail they are using.
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speedysailor



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

Has it not occurred to you there's infinitely more to WSing than planing, there are many other ways to plane through lulls than sticking I-beams in your sails, that "choosing" does not equate to "whining ", that significant pumping is for those who rigged too small, and that merely planing bores the hell out of many of us?
It seems to me that Isobars has added a great deal of negativity to the use of cambered sails over the years. Certainly, there are many challenges to windsurfing, but I really don't know many that are not related in some ways to planing when it comes to the sport today. Freestyle moved from non to planing. I change fins to very unforgiving racing styles and measure my ability by how I both rise to a plane and hold it. Moving from a step to a carve gybe seems like a commonly accepted progression in skill. It has everything to do with planing. It's a question of holding a plane through a gybe or not. Furthermore, look at jumping. Who wants to see a guy jump and stop planing? That is so lame. Yes, simply planing after you have spent a good deal of time doing it can be boring, but it's still the source of all the hoopla and excitement in this sport.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, it's hard to keep everyone focussed on a question! All this talk of ease of rigging, top end speed, freestyle, mast wear and such is interesting, but wasn't the topic.

So, one question I had was about pumping onto a plane. The cam sails seem to pump better where I sail. Seems to make sense since the sail is more rigid. Camless sails seem to deform when I pump them, and energy input doesn't seem to translate to forward movement well. One person commented that camless pumped better. Flexible rig pumping better doesn't seem to make sense. What is everyone's take on the pumping?
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