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Benghazi-gate
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 5696
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
Boggsy, BP employees were held personally liable for the Deepwater Horizon deaths. Do you hold hold politicians to a lower standard? Whoops, sorry........I already know the answer to that.

slippery slope sir..
Should we hold the Bush Administration liable for Pat Tillman's death, and the lying during the coverup of the facts? If Trump says the Iraq war was unjust, and a mistake, can we sue the Bush administration for wrongful death? DO we really need more lawsuits?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we sue the Republicans for not approving more funds for embassy security?

The very idea is preposterous under existing law. But when ignorance stalks the land...
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jpbassman



Joined: 19 May 1998
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
So, JP, you think its a good idea to hold politicians personally liable for deaths that occur working for their country in hostile places?


Those who knew what was going on, did nothing about it, then lied about the cause to cover their own inaction. Yes.

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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 2797

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac said:
Quote:
Can we sue the Republicans for not approving more funds for embassy security?

The very idea is preposterous under existing law. But when ignorance stalks the land...

Do you believe that the lack of funds was THE reason that the pleas for additional security at Benghazi was ignored?

Most of the story from CNN:
Quote:
The September attack that killed four Americans at a U.S. diplomatic mission in Libya was the subject of a few claims at Thursday night's vice presidential debate at Centre College in Kentucky.

U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan contended that requests for more security at the mission were denied before the attack that killed U.S. Ambassador to Libya Chris Stevens on September 11.

Stevens, State Department computer expert Sean Smith, and security contractors Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods died that night as a result of an attack by dozens of armed men on the U.S. complex in Benghazi and a nearby annex, according to State Department officials.

Vice President Joe Biden said Ryan is in no position to argue about diplomatic security, arguing that Ryan, in Congress, didn't provide all the embassy security funding that the Obama administration asked for. Biden also contended that the administration knew of no requests for more security at the Benghazi mission.

We'll look at these claims separately.

Fact Check: Ryan cites unlikely outcome under Obamacare

Statements:

Biden: "We weren't told they wanted more security. We did not know they wanted more security."

Ryan: "There were requests for extra security. Those requests were not honored."

The facts:

On Wednesday, the State Department's former point man on security in Libya told the House Oversight Committee that he asked for additional security help for the Benghazi facility months before the attack, but was denied.

Various communications dating back a year asked for three to five diplomatic security agents, according to testimony at Wednesday's hearing. But Eric Nordstrom, the one-time regional security officer, said he verbally asked for 12 agents.

The request for 12 agents was rebuffed by the regional director of the State Department's Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs, Nordstrom testified.

"For me and my staff, it was abundantly clear that we were not going to get resources until the aftermath of an incident," Nordstrom said.

Also, Lt. Col. Andrew Wood, a Utah National Guardsman who was a site security commander in Libya from February through August, testified that a regional security officer tried to obtain more personnel, but 'was never able to attain the numbers he felt comfortable with." It was unclear whether he was talking about Nordstrom.

Five diplomatic security special agents were in Benghazi at the time of the attack, two of whom only happened to be there because they had traveled with Stevens from Tripoli, according to testimony.

Under Secretary of State for Management Patrick Kennedy responded, at the hearing, to suggestions the State Department was responsible for a lack of preparedness: "We regularly assess risk and resource allocation, a process involving the considered judgments of experienced professionals on the ground and in Washington, using the best available information."

On Tuesday, two senior State Department officials told reporters that U.S. and Libyan security personnel in Benghazi were out-manned, and that no reasonable security presence could have fended off the assault.

Conclusion: It's unclear how high Nordstrom's request got in the administration, but he says he did ask the State Department's Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs for more security help at the Benghazi post.

Fact Check: Iran and the bomb

Statement:

Biden: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

The facts:

According to Democratic House Oversight Committee staff, the amount that the GOP-led House passed for two accounts that pay for embassy security in fiscal 2012 ($2.311 billion) was $330 million less than the Obama administration had requested ($2.641 billion).

A GOP House Appropriations Committee aide confirmed the House bill had less in these accounts than what the administration requested.

However, the final bill, after being worked on by the Democratic-led Senate, put in more money than what had passed in the House. The final bill, which passed with bipartisan support, gave a total of $2.37 billion to these accounts for fiscal 2012 -- about $270 million less than what the administration had requested.

Conclusion: The GOP-led House did initially approve about $330 million less than what the administration requested, but in the final bill, passed with bipartisan support after adjustments by the Senate, put the amount a little closer to the administration's target.

Complete coverage of CNN's Fact Checks
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jpbassman



Joined: 19 May 1998
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, watch the deniers rip this apart.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jpbassman wrote:
boggsman1 wrote:
So, JP, you think its a good idea to hold politicians personally liable for deaths that occur working for their country in hostile places?


Those who knew what was going on, did nothing about it, then lied about the cause to cover their own inaction. Yes.

The results of 9 investigations determined that what could have been done, was done....But keep believing otherwise if it suits you.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 9585

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno--I posted Nordstrom's testimony here at the beginning of the Benghazi thread. He had asked for 4 more security personnel. That request was turned down below Clinton's level in State. Rightly or wrongly, the top management at State didn't consider the Libya embassy their highest priority for more security, and the GOP had regularly cut requests for State budget augmentations. Their perspective was more military, less diplomacy. Nordstrom later testified that the 4 personnel he had asked for would not have made a difference.

Legitimate criticism from the left argues that Obama and Clinton, who was the cheer leader for Libya intervention, did not have an effective game plan for Libya after the assassination of Khadafi. True that, like Bush in Iraq. The lack of a coherent and constructive position from Republicans on the Middle East which combines diplomacy and military approaches, then and now, is what makes a flawed and overly hawkish Hillary a vastly superior candidate to Trump.

By the way, there have been numerous attacks on US embassies. From politifact:

Quote:
Garamendi said that "during the George W. Bush period, there were 13 attacks on various embassies and consulates around the world. Sixty people died." There are actually different ways to count the number of attacks, especially when considering attacks on ambassadors and embassy personnel who were traveling to or from embassy property. Overall, we found Garamendi slightly understated the number of deadly attacks and total fatalities, even using a strict definition. Garamendiís claim is accurate but needs clarification or additional information, so we rate it Mostly True.


There are nearly 300 embassies around the world, 27 are in the Middle East and northern Africa. Nobody knew before the Benghazi attack which were most at risk, but the Republicans had little stomach for increasing security. Something about a pledge to Grover Norquist.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 6653
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes where were the investigations done in spades on Bushes watch?
and it seems to conclude somehow this was chickenfeed not relevant. basically 10% of their budget.



Quote:
about $270 million less than what the administration had requested.


As I noted, the day before 9-11 the bush administration came out and said they were cutting funding for counter terrorism in the usa. Again Bush and gang would not co-operate and testify under oath EVER in the single investigation held. gee which event had a larger impact on the US than the other. well in an idiots mind Benghazi...

again a month before the 9-11 attack the CIA in a PDB told Bush that bin laden to attack the USA, what did Bush do, he decided to cut funding for counter terrorism.

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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as I had outlined... all information was out there about the Iranian scientist.

But again the charge can be if the right wing believe that, well they are the ones that had the documents released under the FOI act. again the document was released 2015.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/08/09/trumps-remarkable-suggestion-that-clintons-emails-led-to-an-iranian-defectors-death/?wpisrc=nl_evening&wpmm=1

trump is a liar.... and those on in the RNC are too.

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MalibuGuru



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 6660

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
jpbassman wrote:
boggsman1 wrote:
So, JP, you think its a good idea to hold politicians personally liable for deaths that occur working for their country in hostile places?


Those who knew what was going on, did nothing about it, then lied about the cause to cover their own inaction. Yes.

The results of 9 investigations determined that what could have been done, was done....But keep believing otherwise if it suits you.


The wolf has been the attorney general in the investigation of an attack at the hen house.
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