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avoiding schrunching
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outhaul



Joined: 27 Sep 2011
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:46 pm    Post subject: avoiding schrunching Reply with quote

Any tips for avoiding or minimizing scrunching the luff while rigging?
I do twist the mast while pushing it up the sleeve but it still happens.
The sound is like nails on a blackboard and of course the creasing of the sail material is awful too.

Thanks.
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joethewindsufa



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 149
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

personally have NOT found a solution, butt rather an alternative
people do not like race sails for their cambers and wide luffs
the beauty of the wide luff is - the mast slides straight in
the beauty of the cambers is - sail shape is retained in wind lulls
the issue - i use these types of sails from 8-oh up
NO solution for 7-oh down Crying or Very sad
hope someone gives us the magic formula Smile
have heard some people attach sail to something when removing mast - this is supposed to help reduce creasing and noises- oh yeah - always tape your mast for easier removal
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13282

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't push my mast up the sleeve (that damages the seam if it's in the leading edge of the sleeve); I push the sleeve down the mast. I start the mast into the sail up to the top of the boom cutout, then rest the bottom of the mast against an object (e.g., tree, fencepost, clump of grass, tire, Jim's foot, a sleeping dog), collapse the boom cutout, slide the sleeve down the mast (which I coat with McLube annually for that purpose), ignore the unavoidable crinkling sounds, make sure the head cap and ferrule are engaged fully, walk down the luff to the base keeping downward pressure on the luff sleeve to make CERTAIN the top and ferrule STAY seated, stick the extension into the mast, and add some tension to make CERTAIN the top and ferrule STAY seated (are you seeing a pattern here?), and proceed to rig.

To remove the mast at the end of the day I remove the boom, stand at the bottom of the rig, and slip the mast out of the luff sleeve. Good old McLube! If the mast separates inside the sleeve, I grab whichever end of the mast top is exposed and slip the mast top out of the nearest opening ... base, cutout, or top. That part is like slipping a straw out of a glass of pop; the sail just falls off the mast top.

That's for RDMs in camless sails under ~7 meters. YMMV with giant sails, fat masts, cams, tight sleeves ... all powerful arguments for McLube.
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kmf



Joined: 02 Apr 2001
Posts: 306

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try using "McLube SailKote", a spray on dry lubricant. Spray it on the mast, and it is a lot easier to push the mast through the mast sleeve.. I use it and it certainly makes the mast much slicker. And it is not messy nor does it stain your hands or sail. A neat product. Don't put it on the area that the boom clamps on tho....you will have endless problems then. (from hard learned experience.)

It can be purchased from the Sailworks loft. Through their website also. Look under Rig Accessories.

KMF
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13282

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McLube is spendy, and a lot gets wasted with spray. I put on surgeons' gloves, then thin cotton gloves, then pour a little liquid McLube on the gloves, then rub my hands up and down the pre-masked masts. You must work quickly, as it dries in seconds. I have never found any downside to the product, unless you count a mast so slippery that carrying them requires attention.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 2976
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: avoiding schrunching Reply with quote

outhaul wrote:
Any tips for avoiding or minimizing scrunching the luff while rigging?
I do twist the mast while pushing it up the sleeve but it still happens.
The sound is like nails on a blackboard and of course the creasing of the sail material is awful too.

Thanks.


some sails are more prone to this & in particular those with cams. Some brands as well.
Using a RDM does reduce this a lot, and putting a SDM into a sleeve designed for a RDM is brutal.

IMO their is no answer

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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1247

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'IMO there is no answer.' (Quote.)

Too right triple U2. The biggest con the sailmakers pulled on us was to sneak in the use of monofilm. (And charge us more, for less!)

I mean, how long would our bedding last if made of such flimsy crinkly crackly stuff when we all get excited dreaming about Raquel Welch? Yet the same dealers who unload this self destructing rubbish onto us try to kid us that alloy booms can't take a bit of salt water without falling apart before our very eyes.

I took one of these dealers by surprise. As you know, our roads are heavily salted all Winter long, and our cars have alloy gearbox casings, so I phoned him out of the blue, and demanded to know why the innards of my gearbox were not scattered all over the fast lane of the motorway?

His violently expressed expletives and pretence not to understand fooled noboby, and his quite impractical suggestions as to what I should do to myself merely proved my point. They are all part of a conspiracy! Shocked Wink
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1889
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, the monofilm "debate" continues 25 years after it began. Film sails were developed for a reason. They worked better -a lot better, than the Dacron/Mylar laminate alternatives. They were more stable, the material was less expensive and far more durable.

The last two statements may need some explanation. While the base material costs were less with film, the actual production cost was higher due to the extra care needed to prevent scratches on the film, so we never saw much savings at the retail level, although the alternative in performance was so much more expensive that we netted out a huge bargain.

The Mylar (extruded polyester film a.k.a. monofilm) laminated to the Dacron added basically nothing to the Dacron's puncture or tear resistance because it was so thin. The Mylar did add some durability of shape over time as it helped control the stretching of the Dacron fibers and helped delay the onset of the sail becoming blown out. Ultimately, increasing the thickness of the film allowed sailmakers to eliminate the laminate altogether and gain the added benefit of increased puncture resistance and less panel distortion. Remember, pure film stretches omni-directionally and distributes a point loading force over a greater area of the sail than would Dacron.

If we define durability by how long a sail will be able to maintain its originally intended shape and its resistance to puncture, monofilm sails win hands down over what they replaced.

A downside of monofilm is that the polyester film is very soft and easily scratched. It also may crack and fail when exposed to UV light. The amount of UV a film sail can handle is directly related to the thickness of the film itself, all other things being equal. If you leave your race sail lying flat on the beach in full sun it will fail far sooner than a wave sail with thicker film or even the same race sail placed in the shade when not being sailed.

Another possible downside is that if the sail ever is punctured the puncture may tear to the nearest seam that runs roughly perpendicular to the tension line of the sail. Woven sails tend to tear less even if punctured. That's why grid sails were introduced shortly in just a few years after the first film sails went into production.

Small crinkles in a film sail mean very little when they come from basic use. If a crease is created from the film being pressed or stepped upon, then that crease is more likely to become a point of failure.

Dacron sails have improved their durability and stability since the mid 80's when monofilm sails hit the market, but they still are made of threads tightly woven together and then sized. That sizing will degrade over time and so will the sail.

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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1247

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I accept what you say Dan, but the problem is using monofilm in windy/sandy environments, where such sails rarely last more than a couple of seasons before turning brittle, and being badly scarred. Walking wet board and rig up a sand blasted beach and having to derig (scrunch crackle) the sand coated sail in the car park doesn't help either.

When sails were a reasonable cost we could grin and put up with renewals to maintain performance, but sails (over here) have now reached astronomical prices. Typical Prydes and Norths are now in excess of £500. (That's over 800 dollars.)

There are light but strong and more durable modern materials than monofilm, and I KNOW that they are more expensive per roll than monofilm but since the major expense in making sails is surely the making and labour time and costs, would using the superior materials really add significantly to the already extreme prices? Adding a little would still make sense if the sail lasted a lot longer.

North make a big point of using great materials, yet they still include film panels. I had one such blow out with a big bang on a two year old north sail. TThe rest of the sail was fine, and had withstood the sand blasting treatment, but what good was that when the monofilm panel hadn't?
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 2976
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
Wow, the monofilm "debate" continues 25 years after it began. Film sails were developed for a reason. They worked better -a lot better, than the Dacron/Mylar laminate alternatives. They were more stable, the material was less expensive and far more durable.



Dan your comments are all very well founded, but do not really address the question, of the rigging issues. More so why the issue is encountered using the chosen materials, based on the option of what is available, using those its going to occur

those wax paper , sun being destroyed sails don't represent a good value to me.

None of my Superfreaks have any issue, and most Ezzys slide in with ease.

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