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Balancing the budget
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5087

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Balancing the budget Reply with quote

Do Mitt and Ryan (and of course Mike Fick) really have a credible argument that we can make our tax system fairer and flatter and eliminate the deficit? Here is an interesting web site that provides information both about tax deductions on the income tax side, and tax credits on the corporate side. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/expenditures/largest.cfm

To give you the punch line, cutting the top 10 tax deductions (health care benefits is #1, mortgage interest is #3) would increase revenues by less than $500 billion. Not chump change, but not the solution. Business tax credits, in total, reduced revenues by $114 billion for 2008, according to http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=358&Topic2id=70, they accounted for 114 billion in reduced taxes for business. Most notably, for the carbon industry that is exposing us to huge future costs to adapt to climate change, those credits reduced taxes from $51 billion to $12 billion.

I do think it is amusing, given mrgybe's protestations that pig oil is only asking for what everyone else gets, that the carbon industry sucks up more than 1/3 of all business tax credits.

While it is always fun to find mrgybe spinning a story into a complete lie, the real point is that eliminating all of these deductions won't fix the system. Most of the money that the Federal government spends--particularly Medicare and defense at $1.4 trillion/year, benefits the middle class. The right wing narrative that the problem is all the lazy poor, and the left wing narrative that the problem is all the greedy rich, are both equally wrong. Balancing the budget will require sacrifice by the middle class, either in benefits or in taxes. Duh.

The question is how we get there. In that respect, I find Obama's creation of a bi-partisan Commission honest, but naive. He was correct that it will take difficult actions by the base of both parties. He was naive in thinking that the GOP was sincere in seeking reductions to the debt. Of course Ryan, in throwing the whole thing under the bus and kowtowing to the Koch wing of the party is the most dishonest. I do think the American public will see through the fog of tax cuts this election cycle.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4017

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Growth is the 1 single issue that can get us out of all of our problems. I wouldnt care if taxes were at 50 percent, as long as the growth rate was at 20 percent. However, this president will not solve the growth issue first. Then it would be easy to raise taxes.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4017

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Growth is the 1 single issue that can get us out of all of our problems. I wouldnt care if taxes were at 50 percent, as long as the growth rate was at 20 percent. However, this president will not solve the growth issue first. Then it would be easy to raise taxes.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said. I am for that.
How should this Pres.or any other do this?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5087

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I surprised that bard can't stay on subject?
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac...

Rough numbers...currently 40% of our revenue are payroll taxes to support SS, Medicare and Misc. Retirement funds (roughly $900B). At the time, none of these programs are running deficits...correct?

So, if we decide these programs should continue to be self-funding and take them off the table, the deficit looks even worse. That leaves some $1.3 T in revenue to pay for some $2.6T in spending. (roughly...quick calc).

It appears that we are spending double what we are collecting if we take Medicare and SS off the table. Considering that defense is a third of this amount (take this off the table too if Romney wins). We now have to make up the $1.3T deficit on $1.8T in spending if we do not want to increase taxes??? Am I missing something here?

How can the Romney/Ryan plan even come close to pencilling out?
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4017

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GE pays no taxes and ships jobs offshore. How do we get them back. We make it easy for small competetive manufacturers to move back here.

Mac even you could figure this out.

Reduce the corporate tax rate
Bring the EPA back to 1990
Arrange for easier and cheaper workers comp insurance
Don't raise the minimum wage for anyone working less than 2 years on a job, so they can be trained.
Give tax certainty to small businesses owners
Find out who is in our country, and eject any illegal who hasn't been working, or has a higher degree.
Allow immigration for all higher degreed specialties with stipulations
Stop printing money so foreigners and offshore money will have faith that if they bring their money here, it will be worth something in 10 years.
Consolidate and reduce the size of government
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1922

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
GE pays no taxes and ships jobs offshore. How do we get them back. We make it easy for small competetive manufacturers to move back here.

Mac even you could figure this out.

Reduce the corporate tax rate
Bring the EPA back to 1990
Arrange for easier and cheaper workers comp insurance
Don't raise the minimum wage for anyone working less than 2 years on a job, so they can be trained.
Give tax certainty to small businesses owners
Find out who is in our country, and eject any illegal who hasn't been working, or has a higher degree.
Allow immigration for all higher degreed specialties with stipulations
Stop printing money so foreigners and offshore money will have faith that if they bring their money here, it will be worth something in 10 years.
Consolidate and reduce the size of government


Reduce corporate tax rate...maybe, after all, corp. taxes are only 7% or so of revenue.
EPA to 1990? What particular rules and regs are a problem for growth?
Cheaper work comp? Really? It is pretty cheap now.
Reduce minimum wage? If we supply health coverage...O.K.
Tax certainty to small business??? As a small business owner, I don't have a clue what you mean by this. How is my tax different than anyone's? There is NEVER certainty in taxes.
Allow immigration "selection"? Or...train our own?
Stop printing money...Agree.
Reduce size of government....Agree. But, please note how little those cuts will influence the deficit re: my post above.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5087

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB--Bard's ranting is not completely insane; the recession dropped Federal revenues about 20%. Social Security is stable at the moment, indeed that surplus is propping up the rest of the budget. Cut the military at 5% a year; there is more fat than that, but cutting too rapidly creates too much chaos. Tell the middle class that they will have to either pay more taxes for Medicare, or derive less benefit. Both parties need to deliver that message. Closing loopholes will not do it, but I would close the carbon loopholes and transfer some of the taxation to carbon since the main thing we do with our bloated military is assure oil security for the western world.

Oh, and eliminate Mike Fick's benefits. Won't save much--but it's his just karmic reward.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2619

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:

Oh, and eliminate Mike Fick's benefits. Won't save much--but it's his just karmic reward.

You probably mean "disability."
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