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Balancing the budget
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14050

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So because some people cheat on their taxes, everyone should be forced to surrender a significant piece of their life savings to a government that will waste that much and more? I don't see the logic.

Besides, the even more egregious confiscation being discussed (according to congressional sources and the text of the paper and speech advocating it) is 100% of our life savings at the age of 65, to be replaced by mandate with an annuity, a notoriously bad deal.

I was at the Alexander Graham Bell Museum on Cape Breton many years ago. A museum guide expressed absolute amazement that we, at a mere 30 years old, OWNED OUR OWN CAR. I can't imagine living in a society that stifles success so drastically ... or that considers owning a car "success". (I saw no point in mentioning that we had two cars.) I guess when people grow up in boiling water, it doesn't seem hot to them.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2638

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Fick-shun wrote:
I guess when people grow up in boiling water, it doesn't seem hot to them.

And likewise, when people grow up with their hands out, it doesn't seem wrong to keep their hands out.

Right, Mikey?
.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess Pueno and Mac will be happy to pay 90% taxes should their income require so? Fat chance. Talk is cheap!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5771

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers,

You asked about tax rates, and pueno gave a very non-biased factual response to your question. Your response? A move to the ridiculous.

One could realistically argue raising taxes for everyone back up to the rates of the Clinton Administration. But given how well the wealthiest Americans have done over the last 10 years, I could easily see a further increase of 5% above the current 39.6%. If paying down the deficit and debt is so important, it is pretty hard to argue against such a meager increase, particularly if all added revenues go directly to debt reduction.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5138

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR--making up dialogue for me is totally without class:

Quote:
I guess Pueno and Mac will be happy to pay 90% taxes should their income require so? Fat chance. Talk is cheap!


The last round of Congressional action on the "temporary" Bush tax cuts made most of them permanent. Thus, Obama has inherited and now owns the structural revenue problems associated with cutting taxes, starting two wars, and not reforming entitlements. Obama, in what was clearly another round of naivete, even if it did reflect political reality, settled for a return on the top bracket to 39% for income over $400,000. Pay attention. That means the tax rate at $400,000 is probably about 28% because the rates increase, but the first part of income is always taxed at the lower rate. Nobody is talking about a 90% marginal rate; it was Kennedy, not Saint Ronnie, that changed that. Quite a while ago, and both sides should stop talking about it. In my opinion it was bad policy.

So if those of us who are fiscally conservative, but consider the Roosevelt era to have some continuing ability to define what we do as a country, what are we talking about? And where is the Tea Party? Most people who are somewhat progressive, but also support the social safety net, know that we need long term reductions in entitlements, as well as increases in revenues. Obama suggested $1 of tax increases for every $10 of spending cuts. It outraged the left, who thought Obama was throwing them under the bus, and the Tea Party was too foolish to take it and run. It was a good deal for fiscal responsibility, smarter than anything actually proposed by Reagan or either Bush. And Obama, at the time, probably had the leadership profile to force it on Democrats, as anti-socialist as it was. Off the table until after the next Presidential election.

Where would those revenues come from? Not from the general income tax; that deal is done and we all own it. The candidates: a carbon tax, increased payments into social security by those who make over the current limit, higher taxes on stock market gains to send a signal against wholesale gambling, and somewhat higher estate taxes. None of those ideas would substantially deplete the degree of wealth in the upper class, or provide substantial disincentives to investment. None would remotely contemplate 90%.

If you want to be taken seriously, make serious arguments. If you try to put words in my mouth I will spit them out.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comment made tongue in cheek and point taken. I do agree with your statement regarding taxes and entitlements. Sorry.. Embarassed
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2638

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
I guess Pueno and Mac will be happy to pay 90% taxes should their income require so? Fat chance. Talk is cheap!

Man, I'd LOVE to make enough to be in the 90% bracket! Very Happy

And so would you! Hell, I'd be happy for you if you were!
.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pueno wrote:
reinerehlers wrote:
I guess Pueno and Mac will be happy to pay 90% taxes should their income require so? Fat chance. Talk is cheap!

Man, I'd LOVE to make enough to be in the 90% bracket! Very Happy

And so would you! Hell, I'd be happy for you if you were!
.


And how much income would you start that at? Let's say $1M, $100k take home? Screw that! I'd rather go on welfare because I know how much work it is to make a fraction of that $1M.

Most people make it look easy when they get to those big incomes. The envious people lose sight of the sacrifices they made to get there, nor do they see the hours or mental energy involved while they cozy up to watch the game.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5138

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR--you're not doing the math again. If you make $100,000, your tax is about $21,200. An effective rate of 21%. If you make $200,000, your tax is about $50,000. An effective tax rate of 25%. If you make $500,000, your tax is about 145,700--an effective tax rate of 29%. These are for a single person, the highest bracket. Less if you are married, less if you have kids, less if you have a house with a mortgage.

On the other hand, if your income is capital gains from investments--including the kinds of investments that brought the economy down--you are the beneficiary of policies that shelter most of your income from taxation. From the Brookings Institute:

Quote:
Taxpayers in the 10 and 15 percent tax brackets pay no tax on most long-term gains; under EGTRRA provisions, extended through 2012 by the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010, and taxpayers in higher brackets face a 15 percent rate on long-term capital gains. In 2013, when all the temporary provisions expire, those rates will revert to pre-2001 levels: 10 percent for those in the 15 percent tax bracket or lower and 20 percent for all others. Recaptured real estate depreciation (that is, gains up to the amount of depreciation deductions previously claimed) is taxed at ordinary income tax rates up to a maximum of 25 percent. Gains on art and collectibles are taxed as ordinary income up to a maximum 28 percent rate. The maximum rates apply under both the ordinary income tax and the alternative minimum tax (AMT). The figure shows how the maximum long-term capital gains tax rate has changed over the years.
Capital losses may be used to offset capital gains and up to $3,000 of other taxable income. The unused portion of a capital loss may be carried over to future years.
Taxpayers may realize up to $250,000 of gains on their principal residence tax-free. Married taxpayers filing jointly may exclude up to $500,000 from tax.


I'm expecting another Embarassed
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was responding to Pueno's comment about gladly paying 90% taxes- read quote attached to my comment...
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