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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1398

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
So feuser, that sounds like we'll become Greece, who only sell olive oil and goats?

We cannot only produce jeans, nik naks and movies. We need to produce things like energy, manufactured goods, and cars for export. IMO tax rates and regulations are key to attracting high paying jobs.

Unfortunately it seems congress and the prez have spent way too much time trying to get re-elected, and not enough time facing up to our future.



Well, everyone sells what they have. One nation produces iPhones, Levi's, Google Apps, the other olive oil.

But energy and cars?
1. we just love to burn all the energy ourselves
2. The cars produced in the US were internationally non-competitive, because of 1.

You can thank the newer EPA fuel efficiency standards, if the US has a chance to sell a car or two in Europe, Japan or China or anywhere else where gas isn't subsidized to hell.

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w8n4wind



Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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Location: canada

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^
GM cant build enough Buicks, and more recently Cadillacs to keep up with the demand in China.

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w8n4wind



Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and theyre building them in China. with all the latetest and greatest manufacturing technology.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

w8n4wind wrote:
...and theyre building them in China. with all the latetest and greatest manufacturing technology.


They've been building market specific models overseas for decades. Hardly an export of manufactured goods, but you do have a point there.

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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides China, the US has trade deficits with Canada, Germany, France, Saudia Arabia, Mexico, Japan etc.

Not all of these countries have friendlier tax structures than the US. So, obviously, something else is at issue. Could it be that we are too consumption oriented?

Do we place more value in the latest gadget and not enough in goods and services produced next door? Maybe we should think about paying the painter next door to tune up the trim instead of buying a new microwave we do not need!
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w8n4wind



Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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Location: canada

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

feuser wrote:
w8n4wind wrote:
...and theyre building them in China. with all the latetest and greatest manufacturing technology.


They've been building market specific models overseas for decades. Hardly an export of manufactured goods, but you do have a point there.


theyre same buicks cadillacs we build( <<<soon to be used to build) here.

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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
Posts: 220

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:


We cannot only produce jeans, nik naks and movies. We need to produce things like energy, manufactured goods, and cars for export. IMO tax rates and regulations are key to attracting high paying jobs.



Industry has left this country for one big reason - it is cheaper to manufacture the same thing in other countries. Most of that savings in cost comes from cheaper labor. Some also comes from, yes, less regulations, particularly environmental laws. But the main thing that will attract those industries back here are the very things we do not want give up - high paying American jobs. Welcome to the global economy. And I doubt anyone wants China's hellish environmental mess they have created to happen here.

All this debate about taxes by the candidates has focused entirely on individual tax rates, which will have little effect on bringing industry back to the US. The US corporate tax rate tops out at 39% which is fairly high, globally (China's is 25%), but there are so many ways to avoid paying the full rate that the actual average is down around 10-15%. Lowering the corporate tax rate might help attract industry back here, but only if labor costs also come down.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, labor costs have come down. DRAMATICALLY...If I had the work, I could hire a hundred qualified and hard working guys for $100 per day here in LA. And for $150 per day, you can just about get any skill level in the construction trades. Kids out of college with good degrees too. If we go any lower, it will be a tradgedy.

Certainly, those with medical, technical and engineering degrees are earning more, but not as much as 7 years ago. Meanwhile food and energy continue to climb. Please just look at the average family earnings.
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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The imbalance between having a few countries with a high per-capita income and many countries with a low per-cap income is economically unsustainable. There will be a slow erosion of that imbalance tending towards global parity in per-cap GDP. I am not talking communist idealism here, this is economic fact - low income means cheap labor. Cheap labor means opportunity to do better than your competition since you can make things cheaper. Any well run company gravitates towards opportunity to improve itself. And besides, most companies are publicly held by stock holders, and as such their investors demand that they show a return on the stock holders' investment. Those stock holders are you and I, through our 401k's, IRA's and pension funds. If those companies don't move offshore, you don't get to retire.

Yes we are worse off than we were 4 years ago but the reasons are far more complex than trying to lay at the feet of Obama or any other president. While our US economy (in terms of jobs) will have some ups I believe it will have more downs than ups and the reason for that trend downwards is the globalization of industry. In terms of Wall Street and investments, because most companies are multi-national, loss of jobs here is not a bad thing as there will be net growth globally, so for those of us lucky enough to have jobs, we will be OK and so will our 401k's. Harsh but true.

Will Mitt Romney rectify this? Remember Mitt's tag line - he is a business man and knows how to run a business. Well he knows that globalization is good for the big multi-nationals since they can off-shore their production and make things cheaper. Think he will change that? I doubt it. And neither will Obama. Protectionism was debunked long ago as being unsustainable.

Really, all this quibbling over the US economy is really fighting over table scraps at this point.
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w8n4wind



Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 275
Location: canada

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottwerden wrote:
....globalization is good for the big multi-nationals since they can off-shore their production and make things cheaper. Think he will change that? I doubt it. And neither will Obama.
Protectionism was debunked long ago as being unsustainable.



protectionism was debunked as unsustainable by who...??
oh, right..the multinationals.

really cant see how the current trend is 'sustainable' for the average north american.

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