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the big lie "the media is liberal"
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4056

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again you conflate torture with consevatives. I think that Bush horse has been flogged enough. Drones anyone?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5138

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bardo--I was responding to the claim that Bush's response to 9/11 was anything but a disgrace. I will never forgive Bush and Cheney--they made me ashamed to be an American.

If you can't see the difference between methodical torture and drones, I can't explain it to you. If they had killed Bin Laden with a drone, not invaded Iraq, and not tortured people I would be ok with the Bush/Cheney response. I will also give Bush credit for throwing Cheney under the bus at the end of his term when he wanted to start a third war--with Iran. George got that one right. One out of three is pretty good in baseball.
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4056

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boston bombing suspect and fugitive Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was a “normal pot head” who supported President Obama for re-election last November, according to friends and his Twitter account.

Chris Barry, who attended the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth with Tsarnaev, described him as normal teenager who loved to smoke pot and cigarettes every day.

“He was a pot head, a normal pot head,” said Barry in an interview with Politico. “I couldn’t even imagine him being mad at someone let alone hurting someone.”

And Obama is better? Just look at his supporters...
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bajaDean



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 885
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Boston bombing suspect and fugitive Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was a “normal pot head” who supported President Obama for re-election last November, according to friends and his Twitter account.

Chris Barry, who attended the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth with Tsarnaev, described him as normal teenager who loved to smoke pot and cigarettes every day.

“He was a pot head, a normal pot head,” said Barry in an interview with Politico. “I couldn’t even imagine him being mad at someone let alone hurting someone.”

And Obama is better? Just look at his supporters...
you bring up a point smoke cigarettes, any one else have the life experience that I only know right wingers that smoke that stuff and defend those companies that make them..... I think you may be on to something here.

As far as his support to the sitting president to be his cover, do you think the 400 or so paid CIA paid reporters in the media act like conservatives in public or like liberals for their cover? From what I have seen his relatives said something was wrong with him for the past 2 years, so his so called friends were not reading the situation well were they. Again he seemed to time his citizenship 9-11 last year. So could you also be reading things way off.

And like I said have not met a liberal in years that smokes cigarettes or defends those companies, but it like owning a gun to the right wingers. So you may be onto something a bit deeper.

Face it, it sounds like he is another right wing government hating religious fanatic. We have them here with names like church shooter, doctor shooter, Tim Mcveigh, all of which are heros to many of the right wing.

As far as the truth about torture, it needs to be known and those who violated the international laws should pay the price. It was known it has never worked and the right wing who as we know are intellectually challenged think they are smart when it is proven right wingers are dumber as a whole in all aspects of knowledge and thinking. This is just one more example of right wingers being criminally wrong. I assume you like the Nazis because it was their MO too. So do you think the Nazis should have been tried for war crimes?
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2637

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
I will also give Bush credit for throwing Cheney under the bus at the end of his term when he wanted to start a third war--with Iran. George got that one right. One out of three is pretty good in baseball.

Give Dubya another half-point for refusing Cheney's demand to elevate Scooter Libby to sainthood.

Bush commuted only the prison term portion of Libby's sentence, nothing else. Cheney wanted everything overturned and his record expunged. Libby was also disbarred.

Kudos for Dubya for denying Cheney.
.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5138

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pueno--there is a scene in the recent HBO documentary on Cheney where Cheney himself describes the Cabinet/National Security staff meeting where he laid out, in his own terms "eloquently", the case for going to war with Iran. Then Bush asked if anyone else in the room agreed with the VP. No one did. The special concludes that Cheney was finally recognized as the highest ranking zealot ever in the US government. I agree, but the criticism of Bush goes not to his intelligence--probably a little above average--but to his management style.

Whether Shrub was lazy, deeply incurious (for sure), or imbued with a managerial style like Reagan's of leaving details to others, he had no overall theory of management to assure he got good, or diverse advice. He allowed Cheney to staff virtually all of his Cabinet and higher level political appointees with such a uniform neo-con and pro-business group that Bush never heard any other advice from insiders until the Iraq war had gone south. The lack of balance in the Cabinet, and the role he accorded Cheney, pretty much guaranteed the result.

While he didn't accommodated Cheney on Scooter, Cheney also committed crimes and should have been indicted. Whatever the Obama administrations failings in Libya might be, it pales next to the intentional outing of security agents, in clear violation of Federal law. Not authorized, but directed by Cheney.

Even Bush's best instincts, like increasing AIDS funding, were sabotaged by his commitment to make sure that businesses--in that case big pharma--made unconscionable profits. So for the activists in developing countries that could have been supporters of the United States the issue became the horrible inefficiency of using patent drugs, at three times the cost, rather than generics.

I think that Bush has already gone down among many historians as the worst president of the modern era--kind of stretching the 20th century. But it was his style and deep incuriousity, not his lack of intelligence, that got him there.
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bajaDean



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 885
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac, I have to disagree. You are spot on about the closed mindedness.
It is all about intelligence.

Bush was just too stupid. Intelligence by nature is intellectual curious and does seek diversity of opinion by definition.

He was just a religious zealot who thought a higher power guided his decisions.

Its funny you never hear a single person who has accomplished anything of a higher level of thought say Bush is smart, it is always his inner circle of idiots who claim he is. Again his professor in Yale remembered him as the arrogant self riotous family connected bottom 10%.... He was bottom of the testing to be a pilot of the some 100 trying out in the national guard. And jumped above all of them. He is an admitted alcoholically into his 40s. Remember till his youth...



I have never met a smart person ever that is a heavy drinker, yes there are probably exceptions, but this intellectual midget was not an exception.

Even his original sec of Treasury, Paul O'Neil who who wrote/co-operated on a book about his short time with Bush, he had served/worked with about 4 or so other presidents including Bush Sr. in other capacities. He commented on how ignorant Bush as well as Cheney were that he believed they were not capable of understanding the issues. He noted that he could talk about this because he was rich the Bush Cheneys could not destroy him financially for telling the truth. He also said within a month of Bush taking office it was proposed how do we get Saddam, to find a way.


Last edited by bajaDean on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2637

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:

I think that Bush has already gone down among many historians as the worst president of the modern era--kind of stretching the 20th century. But it was his style and deep incuriousity, not his lack of intelligence, that got him there.

Be careful, Mac. You're about to incur the wrath of Mikey, Mr. G, BB, N-dub, and a few others here... ...and maybe even Matty... ...not that there's anything wrong with that... Wink

"...Cheney also committed crimes and should have been indicted..."

Indeed. For that reason alone, I think he will not travel outside the US.
.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5769

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pueno, I'm not a Cheney supporter by any measure, but he did recently travel to the UK for Margaret Thacher's funeral, so I think your point is only wishful thinking. Overall, it's a given that Cheney will effectively escape any real responsibility for what he did in office. While he certainly deserves to be raked over the coals for his crimes, it will never happen.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2384

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The judgement of history is the only court the Iraq liars will ever face. I wish I believed in karma.
_________________
/w\
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