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cannot get weight forward on jibe entry
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On wide jibes, they're right. I prefer tight ones, in which I have literally only about two seconds to go from powered-up entry to powered-up exit. That doesn't allow time to oversheet, drive the mast into the turn 'til the booms slice the surface, get the rig back upright, throw it from port to starboard, grab the other side of the boom, sheet in ... all while switching both feet ... slowly. If I'm hurting for power, I'll do it their way, but when rigged right for the moment I prefer my usual way for several reasons. It's all about choices, and I get a bigger kick from quick slashing jibes -- essentially 180-degree off-the-lips, or whips -- than from drawn-out carves.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1231

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all if your boom is slicing the surface you're piked too far over at the waist.

And re 180 degree turn off the lips, as I specified earlier, this is for jibing in which you don't get help from the terrain.

You like to dramatize the description of your jibe, but what you advocate is nevertheless a speed reducer, and works against anyone trying to develop a planing jibe or carry big speed through a jibe.

isobras wrote:
On wide jibes, they're right. I prefer tight ones, in which I have literally only about two seconds to go from powered-up entry to powered-up exit. That doesn't allow time to oversheet, drive the mast into the turn 'til the booms slice the surface, get the rig back upright, throw it from port to starboard, grab the other side of the boom, sheet in ... all while switching both feet ... slowly. If I'm hurting for power, I'll do it their way, but when rigged right for the moment I prefer my usual way for several reasons. It's all about choices, and I get a bigger kick from quick slashing jibes -- essentially 180-degree off-the-lips, or whips -- than from drawn-out carves.

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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2444

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming the title of this thread is about getting forwards, we should come to an agreement that the original poster is looking to plane thru a jibe, not slash, not rip, not tear, his jibes.
As such, the radius the wind allows, the board allows, the water state allows, the the sailor skill allows, with the least disturbance of the trim of the board thru the arc.
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
1. if your boom is slicing the surface you're piked too far over at the waist.

2. re 180 degree turn off the lips, as I specified earlier, this is for jibing in which you don't get help from the terrain.

3. You like to dramatize the description of your jibe

4. what you advocate is nevertheless a speed reducer, and works against anyone trying to develop a planing jibe or carry big speed through a jibe.

1. Then why do so many bottom turns on magazine covers show booms slicing the water? Some of us actually LIKE laying the sail down in jibes. Yes, sometimes I do bend too much at the waist, primarily because I have minimal balance and proprioception and can't tell what my body is doing, but other times I have the board up on its rail so far that the water is at arm's length from my face even while standing nearly perpendicular to it. You jibe your way, I'll jibe mine.

2. A lip or piece of chop is a bonus or a disturbance, depending on the jibe. Presuming I'm well powered -- at max speed if I'm feeling lucky -- I jibe the same way on half an acre of glass. Why? For the same reason I slide into third base at absolutely top broad reach speed when going ashore: because it's fun. If I make 15-20 jibes in a row, I know I'm coasting ... playing it safe ... cruising ... not pushing my envelope.

BOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRINNNNNG.

3. Sure. It's called stoke, motivation, a goal to shoot for, interesting writing, etc. My boring tutorial is at anyone's fingertips in several languages; let's enjoy the less procedural discussions.

4. Certainly putting up a big curtain of water while digging a trench with the lee rail takes energy -- speed -- away from the board, so during that single second or so of hard, unpowered carving I must be scrubbing off some speed. But when I pull it off well, any speed lost is not obvious to me or observers. Done really right, the whole jibe differs from simply bearing off to gain speed only in that in a jibe I spin the sail as I bear off. The result is an exit speed at least as high as the incoming beam reach. That single second or so of speed loss is inconsequential and often unnoticeable.

My long drawn-out jibes on rough water in gusty winds were just not forthcoming, and smooth water was seldom available. My first successes came when I got far more aggressive and really ripped into them, as the mags suggested back then. On the first day of that I tore off many of them on a full, fast plane. The extra lee rail pressure got the board turned past downwind for a change, and the much faster sail spin got that out of the way before I lost the plane. Booms scraping the water come much later, but virtually all the hundreds upon hundreds of stall-jibes we see every day at any Gorge launch could be eliminated by much more aggressive jibing.

Sounds like there may be a sweet spot between tiptoeing through our early jibes and going for broke. Since so many intermediates' bugaboo is stalling at downwind, maybe the mags were right in getting more aggressive, at least with the carve. I KNOW that earlier and more aggressive sail rotation would help the stall-jibers mentioned above plane through.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1231

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
Assuming the title of this thread is about getting forwards, we should come to an agreement that the original poster is looking to plane thru a jibe, not slash, not rip, not tear, his jibes.
As such, the radius the wind allows, the board allows, the water state allows, the the sailor skill allows, with the least disturbance of the trim of the board thru the arc.


Completely agree with you.

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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="isobras"] (load of topic changing)

1. We're not talking about bottom turns. Read the thread.
2. The same holds for laydown jibes.
3. Specified not jibing off of terrain. Again, read the thread.
4. There's plenty of drama to be had on the water without manhandling the gear. As I've suggested to you before, you should consider a windsurfing clinic. You'd be amazed what can be accomplished with technique.

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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 2504

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

with really wide boards in the lightest of winds, i need power on for as long as possible in the transitions. duck jibe has turned out to be best for me. also, with power off, wide tails suddenly become another source of drag? so, again, in the lightest of winds with very large boards, and forcing them to plane with short boomed 9.0's and 7.5's, i tend to carve harder after the sail duck. duck jibes offer a sail flip with the least amount of time with the sail in power off mode.

certainly don't agree with one individual to carve hard when doing a conventional sail transition. just trying to entice some folks to try some ducks. concrete sequential be damned, try a few. may learn something from one back to the other?

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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1545

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water state/wind pretty much determine what type of gybe is going to work best.

Guys on 4-5 meter sails are in pretty choppy/rough conditions will most likely be making quick/sharp/snap gybes, using the waves if appropriate. this is where Iso is coming from. It makes no sense to pound over the backs of a couple of waves if you can avoid it.

Those of us stuck with the more common conditions of flatter water, lighter winds and bigger sails are trying to carve wider turns while trying hard to maintain our speed knowing that at the sail flip, power will be limited to pull us out on a plane. 7-11 meters sails don't flip very fast. 3-6 meter sails flip pretty darn fast.

Carving a quick turn on the bottom of a wave (gorge), you can afford to lose some speed since the wave will give you a boost in speed just after finishing the turn. Wind & board speed isn't quite as critical at this point.

I don't wave sail so it's hard to comment on the value (if any) of a lay down gybe, but they do look like they may be needed for a very quick turn to keep from outrunning the wave. PWA slalom racers don't do full lay down gybes (at best, the mast is 1.5 - 2 meters off the water) and they are making the best gybes possible for speed. Lay downs seem to be mostly for show, and the do look cool. What I don't like about them (not very good at them) is if the timing is a little off (late) when bringing the sail back up, the force of the wind in the sail can literally yank it out of your hands. Too early and it will toss off the board. I need more practice, but I just seem to avoid mastering lay downs.

I also agree that duck gybes are great for planing gybes. They allow you to flip the sail and get powered on the new tack earlier in the gybe so you are less likely to stall. I generally only do them in flat water (it's easier), but I tend to avoid them with my 6.6 and larger sails because I have adjustable outhauls, and I am fearful of getting my hand/fingers caught in the lines at the tail of the boom (no need to lose fingers). It may not be a valid concern, but it is what it is.


Last edited by techno900 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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isobras



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="PeconicPuffin"]
isobras wrote:
(load of topic changing)

1. We're not talking about bottom turns. Read the thread.
2. The same holds for laydown jibes.
3. Specified not jibing off of terrain. Again, read the thread.
4. There's plenty of drama to be had on the water without manhandling the gear. As I've suggested to you before, you should consider a windsurfing clinic. You'd be amazed what can be accomplished with technique.

1. I was responding directly to your claim that we're piked too much if our booms touch the water.

2, 3. Nowhere did I suggest the OP do a laydown jibe, or that he needs a lip to bounce off of. He accurately observed that thrusting the rig forward blocks our view of our exit line, to which I responded, “Yeah, the sail obstructs your view of the exit point ... until you learn to drive the mast further into the turn, both forward and downwind. That gets the mast below your line of sight.” Full laydown? Of course not. But enough tilt to contribute to multiple aspects of a fully planing jibe, including getting our weight forward? You betcha.

4. I chose the method(s) I use based on face-to-face lessons from Cort Larned, Alan Cadiz, and two professional Gorge instructors, on years of tutorials in the magazines, on having limited access to smooth water, on frustration with stalling my carve at downwind, on all the unnecessary sail manhandling (it's like hand-to-hand combat compared to Throw/Throw/Go) most sources advise, on facing the OP's conditions of mixing big chop with wide turns, and on finding a zone between doing everything so slowly that my board coasts to a stop (as we see endlessly everywhere I sail) and doing anything so abruptly that it disrupts the flow. If the time we take getting the board and rig from Side A to Side B exceeds our coasting (non-powered, not just unhooked) time, we lose the plane, as countless jibers do even after years of jibing. The cures include a) greater entry speed, b) less time spent coasting, and/or c) less speed lost to drag. (a) is self-evident, (b) tells us there's such a thing as acting too slowly, and (c) includes both the time and amplitude of the drag we induce. Apparently thousands of jibers don't understand that "The slower we move the faster we jibe" falls apart the instant we let the board stop planing, as anyone with his weight too far aft quickly discovers. We need to find middle ground during the learning phase.

A bud who had been jibing for years in the North Sea said his way was mandatory, even in the wild chop$#!+ we encountered in NM lakes. "His way", I kid you not, including running dead downwind for hundreds of feet, slamming into row after row after row of chop, while he piddlefutzed with his freaking rig for what seemed like 15 seconds getting it turned around. I tried that for a long time, getting knocked off my board every time. "#$%^@!", I said, and went back to learning my way ... actually CARVING the jibe rather than just driving the bus downwind until by some miracle I got everything turned around. Before long I'd be WAY into my next reach before he even got both hands on the new boom arm.

There's such a thing as too slow if our goal includes planing all the way through.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2025

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To quote my favorite coach. "Be quick, don't hurry."

Coachg
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