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Sail Making Materials and Dimension Polyant
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 540
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: Sail Making Materials and Dimension Polyant Reply with quote

Today I was repairing a "brand Name" sail which had a catastrophic tear in the panel(s) above the boom. This particular sail has a lot of graphics and seams in that panel and the materials failed in a big way. At first, I thought "this sail must have a high center of effort which is launching the rider as a flying canonball into the sail. But then, I remembered seeing this kind of failure before in this brand of sail. Matter of fact, it seems to be a frequent occurance. As I worked on, I remembered I needed to place an order for some monofilm and x-scrim from Dimension Polyant.

When I got to a stopping point I got on the phone to order the needed materials from Dimension Polyant which consisted of some monofilm and some Ezzy proprietary spectra x-scrim. While on the phone, I asked the service person if Dimension Polyant provides the films and scrims for the "brand Name" sail I was working on. He said "no, they don't provide very much material to that brand.

I thought about it afterwards, and looked closer at the materials used in the "brand Name" sail. Aha! I've seen this before! Some years back, Aerotech used these same or similar materials and I was getting a lot of sails in with the very same type of failures. As near as I can tell, Aerotech has gone back to Dimension Polyant materials, I can't tell for sure. If you are buying Aerotech's, ask them!

This is my point.....Dimension Polyant is a US company that provides premium grade materials for surf sails and their prices are very reasonable. If you consider a 6 meter sail has about 6 meters of monofilm and x-scrim in it's construction and the price difference between a cheap product (about $4 per square meter) and a premium product like Dimension Polyant (about $6 per meter) amounts to about $12 per sail. Not much considering the short lifespan of the cheap material and the extended lifespan of the Dimension Polyant products. It doesn't seem worth it so some exec can live in a $15 million dollar home instead of a $5 million home.

I'm asking you to please demand from your sailmaker that they use Dimension Polyant in building their sails. If they do not or will not boast that they primarily use DP then run like hell! You will not be getting the premium product you are looking for. Some of the Brands I know to primarily use Dimension Polyant are: Ezzy, Sailworks, Windwing, Goya, Simmer (some), Northwave, and World Sails. These brands are well known for their consistantly high quality products. Others may or may not, of course, I can't know for sure.

There is a big difference in materials and I ask you to support a premium US goods manufacturer like Dimension Polyant. Please, demand it in your new sails!


Last edited by thombiz on Thu May 10, 2012 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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3-phase



Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can add some more brands to your list.

KA Sails uses Dimension Polyant materials.

Jurg
www.windsufdeal.com
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2147

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, there is only ONE brand of car to buy, everything else is junk.
We all need to buy boards made from the exact same materials, because it's the best and longest lasting.
You getting launched is a reflection of your basic knowledge of the sport, it's equipement, and it's materials.
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 540
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some, overpriced, fragile, disposable sails are the best option, wouldn't you say. Seems Insane! Perhaps a chill and some time to reflect. It is a valuable argument for some that it's really all about the graphics. Forget about quality and durability...not me! Never have and never will. When the others step up, they'll be welcome in my world and appropriately endorced.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5462

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, I really like the idea of buying local, particularly for a better material product. You would think that would gain some traction here.
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3-phase



Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

of course not all manufacturer have to buy from Poliyant they can buy from who ever they think has the good stuff. What Tom wants to say I guess is buy at least some quality stuff. The difference can be easy 30 to 50 more days sailing for you and $ 10 less profit for them. Laughing Laughing .

Jurg

www.windsurfdeal.com
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 540
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience is that sails made with the Dimension Polyant products last at least twice as long, maybe 3 times as long. I actually own some '98 Windwings made with DP that look almost brand new. And... up in my attic is a 2003 Aerotech Charge 5.0 which lasted 9 sessions. The third session, it tore a panel from tension. I repaired it for the owner. The fifth session, the panel above it developed a tension tear. I repaired it for the owner. The very next session, the sail tore again, this time on the next panel up. I repaired it again. The ninth session, the disgusted Owner brought it back to me, tore again and said he'd had enough of it and to use it for parts. I saw a lot of similar failures for a number of years in the Aerotechs. Now, the same failures are showing up in the referenced "brand Name". Lately, I'm seeing fewer of those problems with the Aerotechs but I'm not sure if they are using DP products or just using heavier duty cheapie materials.

I have owned a couple KA sails, but not for several years. The wave sail I had stretched out the clue within three hours of 28 mph wind flatwater blasting, the very first time I used the sail. The fabric at the clue developed pronounced wrinkles in the x-scrim. The only other sail I'd ever seen do that was an Aerotech Charge 7.0 that I owned. I have never seen a sail do that since. It hasn't happened with years of use of my Ezzys, Simmers and Goya's.
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 540
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jurg, you're such a likable and engaged dealer that I would love to see you become a Goya or perhaps Simmer dealer. It would be a marriage made in heaven! Great products and a great dealer...as good as it gets!
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sailaero



Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Thombiz
For your information Aerotech has been using dimension Polyant x ply since the late 1990's. The only other times we have used anything else we were using $32 dollar a yard Cuben fiber or $13 dollar Pentex. Not a cheaper material.
For some reason you seem to enjoy trashing Aerotechs name but keep your latest brands problems a secret. Our warranty rate has been consistently under 1% a year. We were the first company to offer a 100% grid wave sail as well as as slalom sails.

We also do in house sail repair and I have seen things go wrong with every brand ours included. Once in a while you run into a sail that just has problems. Sometimes these are caused by the owner and sometimes something went wrong in manufacturing. I have also seen issues with dimension polyant material from delaminating to color fade. Overall they have done a great job and that is why we continue to support them. It is easy to make a heavy sail that is durable that sails like crap.I have one team rider who just turned in his Technora 7.5 Phantom that has seen around 200 days of use and the sail still looked pretty good Our goal has always been to offer a light sail that holds up extremely well and offers the consumer performance and value as well.



Best Regard
Steve Gottlieb
Aerotech Sails
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 540
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I hate to bash Aerotech sails. Some of the sails are actually very well made. I have friends who have Aerotech sails which have performed exceptionally well for many many years, far exceeding the expectations of the the owners. But then, there are those Aerotech sails which should be avoided. OK...the materials I often see with catastrophic failures are: x-scrim where you can see the strings from one side of the material, but not from the other side. This stuff is awful! It is fragile, weak, and fails far earlier and more often than any other material, including monofilm, period. The most common color for this material is white! You guys seem to love this material because you used it for so many years. Remember, you can see the strings from one side, but not the other. I would love to have the money to send some of it to a materials testing lab to get some scientific evidence of it's true mediocrity. When you compare this material to the DP similar white 5 mil x-scrim used by Sailworks where you can actually see the strings from both sides, the Sailworks is far far superior and it is a simple fairly common inexpensive product. Sailworks also uses this same material in blue, red, and yellow. I almost never see a failure in the Sailworks selected material (a T-725 product with colored glue). This very same 5 mil T-725 material is used in Simmers and Goya's and performs beautifully. If you like, I can go on.

I want Aerotech sails to be great! I really want to be able to recommend them to every buyer. They are one of the few manufacturers left who design RAF and Cammed sails compatible with the widespread and popular Powerex and similar masts most people own. Bashing Aerotech is no fun. Having a customer come in for a repair on a 6 month old sail and trying to explain why it failed without an impact is no fun either. Seeing someone with a limited budget not get durability is no fun either. You are a bright person and you already know about the material problems so lets not blow smoke at each other.

I will post pics later today!
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