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Big Oil and citizenship
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4958

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three clicks this time:

Quote:
You are responsible for the immediate cleanup of
your spill, regardless of the quantity involved.
The responsibility lies with the person who spills
the product, as well as the person owning or
having authority over the oil or hazardous
material.

Reportable spills include:
• any amount of oil to waters of the state;
• oil spills on land in excess of 42 gallons;
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4958

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there more? I am always astonished when windsurfers who play in water fouled in so many ways by the oil and chemical industries act as apologists--even, as in the thread above, for their crimes.

The combined oil and plastics industry has fought desperately to prevent meaningful regulation of plastics pollution at the source. They pay nothing--indeed are subsidized--for the toxicity of their product. The oceans are now full of plastics, collected in five gyres. Regulatory agencies--yeah, those terrible people--are doing research on the impacts. Scientist Margy Gassel has now completed fish tissue studies of the impacts of those gyres. Her study is not yet available on the web, but the results were discussed at the State of the Estuary conference in Oakland this week. See http://oehha.ca.gov/fish/oehhakaisei.html

The results? Plastics concentrate contaminants like PCB's to astonishing levels, and result in turning male fish into female fish. I want to hear you righties rationalize this impact.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5685

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900, so you think that right wing media is the victim here? You feel sorry for all those much maligned muckrakers spouting off nonsense on conservative talk radio? Or, perhaps you feel that the phony homemade breaking news spreading on the internet is being wrongly attacked and throttled by crazy leftist liberals from mainstream media?

Maybe you can fill me in how extreme left wing radicals are taking over the talk radio market.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1442

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac said:
Quote:
Techno--what is it about the oil companies breaking the reporting laws that you find acceptable, and are blaming on the media?

By the way, don't whine about how hard it is to find a source if you don't want to be ridiculed for something that is easy to find. Or at least ask for cheese and crackers.


You will have to search for eternity to find where I said or suggested that I am fine with oil companies breaking the reporting laws. Go back a few pages and see what my posts were about and keep on topic.

By the way, I wasn't "whining" about how hard it was to find a source. I said no such thing, but as usual, you like to make up things to suit your agenda. Being ridiculed by you when you have no idea about the topic or my posts only comforts me. It makes me smile.

By the way, is your quote about reportable oil spills from the EPA or California or? I was looking for federal regulations, which so far you haven't found with your three clicks. Or at least, you haven't identified your source if it is the EPA.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4958

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not so fast techno. What you said is that it doesn't matter. What was reported was 300 spills. With almost no exceptions, what spills on land eventually runs off to water. You said, precisely:

I
Quote:
t would be interesting to see the definition of what constitutes a reportable spill. Plus, did any of them have a negative environmental impact? The only real issue here.

Maybe just a lot of hot liberal air and meaningless numbers? Maybe not, but your post means absolutely nothing without "the rest of the story", which the media frequently doesn't offer.


The only thing that matters is whether they have a negative environmental impact? Who gets to decide that? The law requires reporting spills, and you tell me it doesn't matter and is a lot of hot liberal air? Since when do the pipeline companies, and their buddies in the State, get to re-write the law, decide on their own what matters, and break the law requiring reporting?

The underlying legal structure for oil spills is in Federal law. It is usually administered by the State's--and in this case the State looked the other way at 300 pipeline spills! To me, integrity matters. To Congress as well. That's why the companies that spilled will be fined.


The requirement to report is independent of the specific determination of what damage is done. The reason is that with State and Federal agencies with limited staff, we rely on the public to know, agitate for remediation of the spills, and keep pressure on the agencies to monitor the oil companies. It all breaks down if they can scoff at the reporting requirement. But if you believe that regulation is an unreasonable imposition on the market, but spilling is not an unreasonable imposition on the air we breathe and the water we drink...
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 859

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
The results? Plastics concentrate contaminants like PCB's to astonishing levels, and result in turning male fish into female fish. I want to hear you righties rationalize this impact.

Evolution? Genetic predisposition? I've heard you can explain just about anything with those two reasons.


Last edited by reinerehlers on Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1442

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geezzzzzzzzzzz, I feel like I am in the twilight zone.

Last post for those that need more clarity:

News stories that don't include the pertinent facts are worthless. 300 spills seems like a lot. Well that depends on what constitutes a reportable spill. The readers would be better informed if they knew a little more about spills, including if they damaged the environment or not, or how costly the clean ups were.

Stories that just offer up big numbers and imply that things are bad, just aren't real stories without supporting facts. Just a lot of liberal hot air? You be the judge.

Mac said:
Quote:
Since when do the pipeline companies, and their buddies in the State, get to re-write the law, decide on their own what matters, and break the law requiring reporting?

The underlying legal structure for oil spills is in Federal law. It is usually administered by the State's--and in this case the State looked the other way at 300 pipeline spills! To me, integrity matters. To Congress as well. That's why the companies that spilled will be fined.


Go back and read the article you posted from Bismarck ND and you will see that it says that the spills were "not reported to the public". What does that mean? Not reported to the EPA, the State or local news? Reported to no one? Again, it's the crappy, misleading news writing that is my issue, not abiding by or breaking EPA or State laws. That's it, nothing more. Now do you get it?

Mac - no luck on the EPA reportable spill requirements yet? It's only three clicks away.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4958

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rigid right who have decided that regulation is just a drag on society--without actually understanding the nature of regulations and the theory--are part of the anti-intellectualism of the new right. The level of deliberate ignorance on this post is just astonishing:

Quote:
News stories that don't include the pertinent facts are worthless. 300 spills seems like a lot. Well that depends on what constitutes a reportable spill. The readers would be better informed if they knew a little more about spills, including if they damaged the environment or not, or how costly the clean ups were.


Three times now Techno has tried to blame the media for not reporting the "full facts", whatever they might be, and in the process give the pipeline companies a pass. Let me explain the nature of the reporting and self monitoring process that is embedded in most air and water quality regulations. Almost all of these laws are predicated on self-reporting. Even though there are a limited number of refineries in the Bay Area, there is only enough staff at the air and water quality agencies to inspect them about once a year. Compliance relies on self-monitoring reports that are prepared by the companies, and submitted to the agencies under penalty of perjury.

Realizing that they weren't giving agencies enough staff for rigorous oversight, Congress and state legislatures allowed citizens to be private "attorney generals." In other words, they can independently sue a business for violating their permits, and those lawsuits sometimes result in large fines and settlements that fund the attorneys in private groups like the Water Keepers.

Knowing a fair amount about refineries, they generally fight new regulations with all of their resources, but do a good job in complying with regulations once they are established. They know that they are big targets and citizens groups will nail them--as they did in the past--if they screw up. Thus the carelessness of Chevron in maintenance and reporting that led to the huge Richmond fire is generally the exception, not the rule.

All of this depends on reporting. When a pipeline company fails to report 300 spills, it doesn't matter what you, or anybody else thinks, about how those spills might be minor. That's not your job--if you want it to be, run for Congress. What the non-reporting shows is the lack of either integrity or competence, or most likely both. That concept seems to be difficult for you to grasp there in the twilight zone.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4958

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Directly from the Twilight Zone, or perhaps from Oz, where the right wing think that oil companies can do no wrong and all reporting in a newspaper is incomplete and biased:

Quote:
WASHINGTON, DC, Nov. 1
11/01/2013
By Nick Snow
OGJ Washington Editor

Tesoro Logistics LP will restart its High Plains crude oil pipeline in North Dakota that has been shut down since Sept. 29 when a rupture and leak were discovered, the San Antonio pipeline master limited partnership announced.
The announcement came a day after the US Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administered issued a safety order requiring TLLP’s Tesoro High Plains Pipeline Co. (THPP) to take corrective measures after 20,000 bbl of crude leaked from a small hole in the line into a field north of Tioga, ND.
TLLP reported that PHMSA has accepted a detailed restart plan the company submitted under the safety order. The agency and carrier also have completed a preliminary analysis of the failed segment, which was removed and sent to an independent laboratory for further study, the pipeline operator said.
The US Department of Transportation agency issued the order Oct. 31. PHMSA ordered THPP to perform frequent aerial and ground inspections and install additional leak detection equipment. It said the company also must update maps of the entire system and evaluate the 700-mile long pipeline to identify further preventative measures to protect important water bodies.
THPP also will be required to conduct mechanical and metallurgical testing and analysis of the failed pipe, and evaluate previous inspection results, according to PHMSA. The failed pipe segment has been removed and sent to a lab for analysis, it said. New pipe has been installed and tested, and pressure and flow detection systems have been installed, PHMSA said.


I suppose 20,000 barrels qualifies as a spill? Now I understand that the right, and those who own stock in Canadian oil tar, don't want publicity about frequent pipeline spills--frequent unreported pipeline spills--while the Keystone Pipeline and its impacts are being debated. They are even less willing to discuss the various subsidies involved in the use of public land for right of way.

We can trust corporations but not government. Perhaps in the Twilight Zone.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1442

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac said:
Quote:
Three times now Techno has tried to blame the media for not reporting the "full facts", whatever they might be, and in the process give the pipeline companies a pass


"full facts, whatever they might be" - Exactly, crappy reporting without the FULL STORY. You can't quote the facts because there are none except the 300 spills.

"and in the process give the pipeline companies a pass". I love the way you make things up. You rarely comment on or debate the comments that the opposition posts, you just go off on tangents, ranting and raving on issues dear to your heart, but not relevant to the post that you are responding to. Slow down a bit and pay attention.
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