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Big Oil and citizenship
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3325

PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with you rigitrite.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3325

PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's those complex interactions that I don't like much when you add more heat energy to the system.
Tornados,hurricanes,freezing cold in one place with searing heat in another,
Melting ice raising the water,insect pests moving around,algae blooms,cranky old people from the heat posting online......
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3325

PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Styrofoam glaciers,
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5761

PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of glaciers, I remember not too long ago seeing the pictorial results of aerial photography of some specific North American glaciers originally shot in 1937 in contrast with modern day aerial shots done to replicate the positioning, altitude, time of year and time of day. The amount of glacial loss was absolutely astounding. While it's hard to put a finger on the exact causal factors that produced such enormous change, there is no doubt that long term climate change is at the very heart of things.

Where did the melted ice go? Right into the surrounding waterways and oceans. Since water doesn't really escape the plant, sea level rises accordingly. The facts are so compelling, even airhead deniers can't be stupid enough to look the other way. In my view, the sooner we address the issue of climate change the better. While man's contributions to the planet's changing state is surely only a part of the picture, we'd be wise to focus on reducing our pollution footprint in the environment.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3325

PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nonsense. If you are a conservative then global warming is a fraud.
What do absolutely irrefutable photos of glacier loss have to with that?
My wife is traveling in Canada. They took a tram ride to touch some newly exposed snow that fell thousands of years ago.
Surely a denier winds up there at times.
I wonder of it feels confusing when you have proof of warming in your hand?
Giving you frostbite in Aug?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5122

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there are many other alternatives:

Quote:
even the most ardent liberal tree hugger is gonna burn every....single.....drop.....of oil if the alternative means walking to work



We are now using about 1/3 of the carbon fuel per unit of GDP that we were--without resorting to hair shirts or walking to work. Insulation, and some forms of conservation, are cheaper per unit than new supplies. And the producers of carbon fuels do not pay for the security forces to protect those supplies, the shipping infrastructure that moves it, or the conventional pollution generated, much less the cost of warming. Adding those costs to the price of fuel doesn't make us walk--it encourages us (more efficiently than a regulatory structure would) to find alternatives and conserve. The market has been doing it for more than thirty years.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1331

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to the advance and retreat of Greenlands glaciers and ice sheets, those claiming man made global warming as the SOLE cause of the current retreat should check the graph of (best calculation from past evidence) Greenlands temperature changes from about 600 A.D. to the present day.

The hottest period (probable furthest retreat of Northern hemisphere glaciers and ice sheets) is shown as about 700 A.D., with a second peak at roughly 1000A.D. At that time, the Vikings (a bee in my bonnet) had a self sufficient and thriving community in parts of Greenland. The Northern Hemisphere in general (Viking Sagas, and Roman accounts) was warmer then.

The graph shows a general fall (with obvious peaks and troughs) in temperature, and an advancement of the glaciers, culminating in the coldest period (the mini ice age in Northern areas) around 1700 A.D. Settlements died out (literally) in Greenland aropund about 1200 A.D. by which time it was already impossible to continue growing crops.

Since the low point of 1700A.D. the temperature has been back on the upward trend, and the ice has been retreating, BUT, even today, it has STILL not matched the hottest period between 700 to 1000 A.D.

Those who attribute everything to man made global warming need to explain these things.

If the Russians are right and we are entering another solar cooling phase which may last a couple of centuries, the glaciers and ice sheets will pretty soon thicken once again.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1442

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly!

Funny, you hear almost nothing about forest fires and their contribution to CO2 levels. It seems that man's arrogance is too big to seriously consider natural events as major contributing factors in global warming, plus it doesn't help support the political issues some stand behind.

We may never know how much man contributes to global climate, nor if it is even significant. At least not in my lifetime.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1925

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny you should mention forest fires. I live at 9000 ft in an area that seldom has forest fires. The reason is that the late snow pack, that usually extends well into late June, along with the Monsoons that begin usually in early July does not allow a long potential fire season.

Lately, we are in a drought, that has caused stress to trees, along with a series of abnormally hot summers. Bark beetles are now destroying forests that have not been touched in the past providing more fuel.

Overgrazing of the desert southwest, combined with a stronger wind season (global warmng?) has caused dust to accumulate on the snow pack. Sun warms the snow faster and the runoff is earlier.

Some of this is normal cyclic variations in the climate. The increased dust is certainly human caused. The result, is a perfect storm for dramatically, and quickly, changing the environment where I live.

Let's assume that the warming is only 25 percent human caused. This may be enough additional warming to exacerbate a normal cyclic variation and destroy a sensitive environment.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5122

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is refreshing to see a substantive posting, but I think GT is a geologist, so it is not surprising to see him interested in facts. He did not provide a specific citation, and his conclusion seems to contradict this time series of temperatures in Greenland: http://www.meltfactor.org/blog/?p=294

This shows the proper smoothing of data (something not done in the allegations that there has been no warming for the past 15 years. That pesky lack of peer review that makes people who don't do it look pretty foolish.)

There is a study that looks only at the south of Greenland here: http://www.dmi.dk/dmi/greenland.pdf But their conclusion is tempered with this comment:

Quote:
Despite global warming over the past few decades (Mann 2001), the SW marginal areas of southern Greenland seem to have actually cooled, especially daytime temperatures in winter. This may be related to a stronger NAO, which yields warmer conditions over NW Europe while strengthening cold northerly winds over Greenland


Or you can look at these different time series: https://www.google.com/search?q=time+series+of+temperature+in+Greenland&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=T5cTUrWxJOaeiQK4iYBQ&ved=0CEMQsAQ&biw=960&bih=453

to get an idea of how chaotic the data for Greenland is. I was particularly impressed by the time series for the global temperature anomaly, which shows an apparent linkage between global temperatures and Greenland temperatures for reconstructed ice cores. When scientists first started using reconstructed ice cores to estimate historic temperature and CO2 trends, consultants paid by the carbon industry attacked the practice. But they seem to support them now if they think they support their client's interests.

Very interesting.

Techno, however, seems to be grasping at straws with his comment about forest fires. Just two clicks gets you to this conclusion:

Quote:
Although carbon dioxide from forest fires is a small fraction of the carbon dioxide produced by burning fossils fuels, it's still an important issue to study,


What, you mean the scientists thought of this? See: http://www.geotimes.org/nov07/article.html?id=WebExtra111207.html
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