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Big Oil and citizenship
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2765

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Why must we always assume a fatalistic view about things?

Because gloom 'n doom scare tactics are the heart of the conservative republicans' strategy to reshape American society.
.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5574

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is always useful to stay on topic, or even in thread. There is one recent study that looked at the costs of Medicare, the largest Federal program involving medical costs. It did not distinguish between legal immigrants and those in this country without proper papers, and concluded that immigrants, both legal and undocumented, contribute far more to the system than they take out. It is certainly not definitive on all medical costs, but does not make the distinction between legal and undocumented immigrants that mrgybe claims.

A reasonable peer review of the study might look at the age cohorts and conclude that the study does not account for future health care needs. Reasonable criticism, expressed without scorn, might thus be persuasive on that point. To be sure, future costs need to be discounted in a present worth accounting. On the other hand, undocumented immigrants who work in the regular economy, especially with a social security number that is not their own, contribute to a system that they cannot claim benefits from, so they will always be net contributors. The study was not done by the New York Times, and I am still waiting for a reasoned critique, not one based on faith. Since Medicare is the largest of the medical programs, and the study was clear that documented and undocumented immigrants create a net benefit in that fund, I am persuaded that the health care costs of creating a pathway to citizenship can be managed.

For the immigration debate, the question of costs of undocumented immigrants who may now use the emergency room system arises. Avoiding polemics, I found this comment, from a credible source, thought-provoking:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-21/fix-immigration-bill-to-reduce-health-care-costs.html

There is, and should be a debate about the costs of healthcare if undocumented immigrants are allowed a path to citizenship, and it is clearly going on according to Yahoo News:

Quote:
Although current law bars immigrants here illegally from Medicaid and Obamacare, pregnant women, children, seniors and the disabled have access to emergency Medicaid services. Immigrants here illegally can also access community health centers. That would be the case for immigrants getting provisional status under the immigration bill, too.

Beyond that, a certain number of immigrants would get employer-sponsored care. Right now, some 30 percent of immigrants here illegally are covered that way, according to the Migration Policy Institute. That number would likely rise at least somewhat if the immigration bill becomes law.

But the issues are far from settled. Along with border security and other matters, health coverage is almost certain to be the subject of disputes on the Senate floor in the weeks ahead.


See also: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-immigrant-health-care-bills-stump-house-group-20130523,0,7875462.story

The dilemma is that those in this country, whether legally or illegally, cannot be denied emergency health services, regardless of whether they are citizens or own insurance. So emergency room care for those who are uninsured is a given cost, and the issues of the ACA emerge again as to whether that system will reduce emergency care costs enough to warrant the Federal subsidy in insurance.

The legislation that passed out of the Senate Judiciary Committee contained this pathway to citizenship, according to the Hill:

Quote:
The centerpiece provision of the legislation allows an estimated 11 million people living in the U.S. illegally to obtain "registered provisional immigrant status" six months after enactment if certain conditions are also met.

Applicants must have arrived in the United States before Dec. 31, 2011, and maintained continuous physical presence, must not have a felony conviction of more than two misdemeanors on their record, and pay a $500 fine.

The registered provisional immigrant status lasts six years and is renewable for another $500. After a decade, though, individuals could seek a green card and lawful permanent resident status if they are up to date on their taxes and pay a $1,000 fine and meet other conditions.

Individuals brought to the country as youths would be able to apply for green cards in five years


To be sure, a careful reading of the debate, as well as showing some respect for less inflammatory terms, would reveal that some of the problems of aging population are raised by provisions that would allow the parents of legal immigrants to also immigrate. Truly difficult issues that require an open mind to think about.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3538

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pueno,
Is good to remember that conservatives and the leadership of the GOP are two different groups of people.
And that many Dems hold a dim view of the future of these programs.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1546

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder why Harvard did the study. It seems that when it comes to legal immigrants, they are no different than you and me. They have SS#'s work and pay taxes just like every other legal citizen. If the vast majority of these immigrants are below age 65, then clearly, they put more into Medicare than they take out at this point in time. Shocking news, what a valuable study!!!

The illegal immigrant is the real issue. If there are 11 million of them and all seek some sort of medical attention from time to time, the vast majority of these services are probably paid by you and me. Clearly there may be some unknown percentage that have fake SS#s and do pay taxes, but I seriously doubt that the number is very high. None will be drawing from Medicare for a long, long time, so suggesting that this group is shoring up the Medicare system at this time in any meaningful way is fantasy.

One of the quotes that Mac posted said that 30% of the 11 million illegals have medical coverage through their employers. Does anyone really believe that? Don't you think that the insurance companies would be on top of this kind of thing?

I do admire the work ethic of the Hispanics both legal and illegal. We have become dependent on their contributions, doing the hard manual labor jobs that many fat, lazy and government dependent US citizens refuse to do.

We do need immigration reform, but as my skeptical side usually does, I suspect that the management of the reform will likely be another nightmare. Can you imagine trying to manage the ACA and immigration reform at the same time? I suppose that government will create a huge number of jobs to manage all of this including boarder security, which may be a good thing, but you and I will likely pick up the tab (actually, the government will just borrow a little more from China to cover the costs).

I also haven't seen any debate about what the typical illegal will do if the option of a 10 yr. road to citizenship is offered and then rejected. They may not want to pay the fines, taxes and go through the long process to become legal. I am thinking that a huge number will continue with the status quo, work, make money, NOT pay federal taxes and keep sending the $ home to Mexico. So what happens if say half the 11 million take a pass on the road to citizenship? Just something to think about.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2765

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keycocker wrote:
Pueno,
Is good to remember that conservatives and the leadership of the GOP are two different groups of people.
And that many Dems hold a dim view of the future of these programs.

True enough. There are some on the right who are capable of rational thinking.

But overall, the right wing response to almost anything is, "OMG, look out, warning, WARNING, DANGER, we gotta do XYZ right now or the sky will fall and the WORLD IS DOOMED -- and it's the Marxist socialist anti-American Muslim Kenyan's fault!!"

None of their dire predictions have ever come true.

And that's one reason to laugh at them.
.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 6030

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are those that prefer to view the glass as half empty rather than half full. Over time techno900, you prove to be dependably in the former group. Anytime the government is the subject, you are quick to throw a deep shadow of pessimism over everything. What do you propose that our government do?

While I would hope that the Republicans in Congress will get serious about addressing the problem by supporting meaningful legislation, I question that its members in the House of Representatives really have the ideas and commitment to overhaul our immigration system in an effective way. That will mean that they can't screw around like they did on the ACA. The effort and results must be big. On the positive side, House Speaker Boehner just indicated that he firmly believes that they can pass immigration reform by the end of the year. In the Senate, Majority Leader Reid is currently committed to passing it by the end of July. One wonders how the House will manage the months before the end of the year, and more importantly, whether they have the vision and focus to agree on a viable path for citizenship, or at least, legal residency for the 11 million illegal immigrants that are currently here.

As I see it, the key to immigration reform is rooted in creating a modern verifiable identification system that can't be compromised. That will require employers in our nation will be a crucial focus point of the enforcement process to ensure that all potential workers have proper identification. Moreover, that will mean that there must be substantial criminal and monetary penalties for employers that fail to uphold the requirements of the law. We haven't been serious enough in the past, and that must change.

Many Republicans would much rather focus on border control, but as we all know, it's highly questionable whether it is an effective means to stem immigrant flow. Also, it's extremely costly to maintain such a system. The real issue is jobs, and if immigrants can't get them, they can't really survive here for any extended period of time. Instead of pouring huge sums of money into border control, I would much prefer ending the War on Drugs and use the money and government personnel to create an effective system to police employers to ensure that they are following the law. If Americans want immigration control, that means that we need to get tough on offenders. We have to remember who the enemy is. It's not the illegal immigrant, it's an American or an American business that ignores the law and hires them.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1546

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler said:
Quote:
If Americans want immigration control, that means that we need to get tough on offenders. We have to remember who the enemy is. It's not the illegal immigrant, it's an American or an American business that ignores the law and hires them.


My guess is that THIS IS what most Americans want. For some reason (economy???), our government doesn't want to get tough on offenders so there seems to be plenty of employers willing to hire illegals.

Sorry, but I doubt that much will change regarding enforcement in the new program. Hopefully, I am wrong and government will get some balls. If they don't, it won't work and little will change.

My skepticism comes from history, lots of big ideas, promises, etc., mostly BS to sell the gullible voters that it is something good. Later, you hear "we didn't foresee that, we underestimated costs, things have change, nobody read or understood the entire bill, etc". Yes, they get it right sometimes, but I think small steps rather than giant steps leads to more efficient and cost effective programs. We shall see............

Just a side note on the Obama phone issue. Everyone here knows that the program was in place before Obama was elected. We all also know that the concept had some merit in the beginning, but now the abuse is rampant. That's my issue..........Obama could rein in the program and leave the essential elements in place, but we all know that that would be very unpopular with his supporters, sooooooooooooooo the abuse continues. My phone expenses are a little higher because my service company charges me excess fees because they have to fund the program. Why do we stand for it? I guess since it's not funded with federal tax dollars, why should Obama rock the boat.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3538

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those employers have lobbyists and purchase Congressmen.
Immigrants got nobody but some bleeding hearts on their team.
As to the border we would have build the Berlin Wall thousands of miles long and it would work just as well as that POS wall did. And cost trillions and require tens of thousands of illegal immigrants to complete.
Chandlers idea is the only one that can work. Try to take a job in Mexico without a mex green card. The employers know they will be arrested and won't even consider it.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1918
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pueno wrote:
keycocker wrote:
Pueno,
Is good to remember that conservatives and the leadership of the GOP are two different groups of people.
And that many Dems hold a dim view of the future of these programs.

True enough. There are some on the right who are capable of rational thinking.

But overall, the right wing response to almost anything is, "OMG, look out, warning, WARNING, DANGER, we gotta do XYZ right now or the sky will fall and the WORLD IS DOOMED -- and it's the Marxist socialist anti-American Muslim Kenyan's fault!!"

None of their dire predictions have ever come true.

And that's one reason to laugh at them.
.

Sounds like you just described the global warming alarmists who in large part reside on the left.

_________________
I don't drink the 'cool' aid, I drink tequila, it's more honest.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2765

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw-turdy wrote:

Sounds like you just described the global warming alarmists who in large part reside on the left.

Yeah.... the nerve of those loonie lefties -- as the ice caps melt, the water rises, and the weather becomes increasingly unsettled with stronger storms and tornadoes.

These things aren't predicted for the future, they're happening today.
.
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