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Double backstrap
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2388

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if you call "to bed" right after sailing boasting, sure...
Nationals last year, one practice day, Berkeley was blowing 25-34, and most rec sailors were wound on 4.2's.
TysonVoland and his buds were slaloming around cones with 7.6's, MikePercy and I with 6.0's, and we were all similarly overpowered, but it's a rare opportunity to sail with those guys, and Wilhem of Brazil all zooming around and trying to cut inside each other around the marks. You take fun anytime you can find it.
No relaxing, not recommended, but when the guys get a chance to get together, you gotta go.
If those guys weren't going out when I arrived, I would have rigged a 4.2 and 73 liter board. Instead, to sail with them, needed the 6 and 102.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1171
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mchaco1 wrote:

Thanks for looking out, but im not quite that beginner Laughing In those conditions I would just start in the straps, or waterstart with the back foot in. Ive never gone for the back foot first once up on the board though, it just throws off my balance too much.


You might be missing the point. As one who trys to teach this crazy sport all summer long as instructors we try REAL hard to teach solid skills that build upon another to make a very well rounded windsurfer. Sure you CAN do other things, but they do not help inforce the good habits.

I would never consider putting my foot in the strap on a waterstart because that isn't a positive action that builds on anything. I pretty much waterstart the same way underpowered in 15mph winds or when it's nuking at 30+. It works the same way, all the time.

Same thing as the foot strap. The foot goes in the front, then the back. The only difference here is the back foot goes faster when I'm OP than when I'm trying to ease up an underpowered board up on a plane. And we want your balance to be steady when doing it. This is the same.

Sure you can get away with it differently upon different conditions, BUT if you develop your skills doing it in the correct sequence you never have to and you won't develope bad habits. In the Gorge people can get away with a lot of bad technique because of strength of the wind. BUT I can tell you no established teaching school will teach it that way, because they understand the teaching proces and the importance of learning things the correct way....
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mchaco1



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 643

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
mchaco1 wrote:

Thanks for looking out, but im not quite that beginner Laughing In those conditions I would just start in the straps, or waterstart with the back foot in. Ive never gone for the back foot first once up on the board though, it just throws off my balance too much.


You might be missing the point. As one who trys to teach this crazy sport all summer long as instructors we try REAL hard to teach solid skills that build upon another to make a very well rounded windsurfer. Sure you CAN do other things, but they do not help inforce the good habits.

I would never consider putting my foot in the strap on a waterstart because that isn't a positive action that builds on anything. I pretty much waterstart the same way underpowered in 15mph winds or when it's nuking at 30+. It works the same way, all the time.

Same thing as the foot strap. The foot goes in the front, then the back. The only difference here is the back foot goes faster when I'm OP than when I'm trying to ease up an underpowered board up on a plane. And we want your balance to be steady when doing it. This is the same.

Sure you can get away with it differently upon different conditions, BUT if you develop your skills doing it in the correct sequence you never have to and you won't develope bad habits. In the Gorge people can get away with a lot of bad technique because of strength of the wind. BUT I can tell you no established teaching school will teach it that way, because they understand the teaching proces and the importance of learning things the correct way....

No doubt its bad technique, my only point was that I wont get hurt doing it Very Happy The only thing puzzling me is the big taboo on in strap waterstarts,yet when you watch good windsurfers doing jumps and waves and all that they pretty regularly do something and land in the water at a dead stop and continue on their way in the straps. Why is it any different it you were swimming or sailing the 5 seconds before? It seems like a useful skill to have
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1171
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes if I stall out or land a jump and stall AND it is windy enough then sure I stay in the straps and work the board back up to speed. But that isn't the same as developing good waterstarting skills..
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14190

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, have you read the many hundreds of posts on BFF, including my extensive highly logical analyses based on physics, safety, practicality, and all the specific objectives of getting onto a plane? Have you noticed the Lisfranc injury rate among pro sailors? Did you notice that many true experts, including some pros, admit they BFF in some conditions? Do you really insist that there's only one way to do ANYTHING in this sport? Do you think it's legitimate to simply announce that only your way works without referring lesser sailors to both sides of the argument? Did you know that I had been advocating boom-to-boom jibes for something like 15 years before ABK switched to it? You're a far better sailor than I, but that doesn't mean you know everything about it. Rather than simply announcing that BFF is always wrong, how about showing us why it's wrong, especially given how well it has worked for thousands of people in millions of jibes and watertstarts. (Tip: SURELY there cannot be any argument for or against it that has not been beaten to death. NO ONE wants to revisit the same old debate.)
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1171
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
John, have you read the many hundreds of posts on BFF, including my extensive highly logical analyses based on physics, safety, practicality, and all the specific objectives of getting onto a plane? Have you noticed the Lisfranc injury rate among pro sailors? Did you notice that many true experts, including some pros, admit they BFF in some conditions? Do you really insist that there's only one way to do ANYTHING in this sport? Do you think it's legitimate to simply announce that only your way works without referring lesser sailors to both sides of the argument? Did you know that I had been advocating boom-to-boom jibes for something like 15 years before ABK switched to it? You're a far better sailor than I, but that doesn't mean you know everything about it. Rather than simply announcing that BFF is always wrong, how about showing us why it's wrong, especially given how well it has worked for thousands of people in millions of jibes and watertstarts. (Tip: SURELY there cannot be any argument for or against it that has not been beaten to death. NO ONE wants to revisit the same old debate.)


I knew this would fire you up. Mike as one who gives pages and pages of advice surely you know something of the teaching method?? As one who has spent most of my life teaching (and the list of what is very long) there is a method of how you teach and how each lesson enforces the good habits of the last and builds upon it. Millions of people have learned this way (see how ridiculous using arbitrary numbers sound).

If learned properly this will work well without disturbing the board or sail.Encouraging people to go bff WILL disturb the board and or sail and teaches them a bad habit. However i know you will never agree with this...
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2388

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"method of how you teach".....
Teaching. You teach beginner waterstarters. Guess what? They soon become intermediate waterstarters, then advanced waterstarters, then expert waterstarters.
Think about that.
We're telling you how to survive a waterstart when the winds hit 30, and you're on a 6 meter or bigger sail.
YOU are telling us we are wrong, that we should only write about BEGINNER waterstarting. Guess what? Beginners can get caught out there in 30 mph winds and 6 meter sails.
Like....you should always teach self rescue. What to do when the mast breaks, when the fin snaps off, when the winds die to zero, or when the winds come up from 15 to over 30.
Isn't that part of the teaching program?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14190

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:
bff WILL disturb the board and or sail

Only if done improperly.

Do you REALLY want to restart the debate?
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2388

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At 150lbs., I often use BFF on my 64 liter wave board, 4.5, and gusts around 30. If the wind at the time is only 25, usually FFF.
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mchaco1



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 643

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the debate is still raging on on the other thread... lets just all agree that we are going to do what we are going to do whatever anyone else says Laughing I dont think any of the methods are more likely to get anyone hurt, bad harness technique is what gets you thrown. I think they all have a time and a place and anyone who doesnt try them all out will never know what truly works best for them...
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