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windyjones



Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starboard tack, down wind, less maneuverable sailors have right of way. Other than that just pay attention and do what seems best.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14171

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

windyjones wrote:
down wind, less maneuverable sailors have right of way

Again: aren't those in conflict?
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2001

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isoís,
Iím not seeing how an upwind sailor would have less maneuverability, pinching or not. Being upwind I can easily tack, take advantage of the greater speed I have by being upwind & accelerate downwind ahead & jibe or slow down & jibe behind him. Or I could signal to him that I need to jibe?
If you are talking about both sailors pinching upwind & the downwind sailor is overtaking than the downwind sailor yields right of way because he is the overtaking craft and should alter his course.
Now I realize that the KISS principles the coast guard applies to our waterways donít always make sense for windsurfers but the rules are easy to understand and easy to apply. If the coast guard started making rule exceptions for all the different types of sailing craft than you would end up with a complicated mess.

Coachg
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14171

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
If you are talking about both sailors pinching upwind & the downwind sailor is overtaking than the downwind sailor yields right of way because he is the overtaking craft and should alter his course.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I've argued that very scenario online -- including in this thread -- many times in many forums for more than a decade, and have every time been told that I must do whatever it takes, including jumping into the water, to let the other guy do whatever he wishes just because he's downwind of me.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2001

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I donít see the big deal in this situation. The vessel being overtaken has right of way as long as the vessel being overtaken maintains course even if the vessel being overtaken is upwind. In this situation simply signal to the overtaking sailor that you intend to jibe or slowly start to bear off allowing the overtaking sailor to head up. If he doesn't respond than he is a jerk or doesn't have the skill to adjust. Again, the obvious solution to this situation is to tack or head up, stall, backwind long enough for him to pass and then continue on into a jibe. Why jump in the water or get stressed?

Coachg
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14171

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't get stressed, merely kept sailing and let the other guy do whatever the heck he wanted to. It's his problem, not mine, when he has a square mile of options and I have none. I have no right or desire to jibe into him or bear off into him, and am not going to stall my pinched-out sinker and sink to my waist just because some self-centered goofball prefers the space and time I happen to occupy over his square mile. Possession takes care of 90% of the dispute, and phbtphbtphbtphbt takes care of the other 10%. Wink

The bigger problem, independent of my two most blatant such experiences, is that everyone else in this decades-long debate has claimed the downwind sailor has ROW. You and I agree on this, but the other 9,999,998 seem to disagree.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5817

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything was hashed out and clarified pages ago isobars. You seem to revel in kicking up the same old dirt over and over, even in the same thread. Why?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5218

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CoachG--helpful post. KevinDo--as you can see, there are some who don't want to know the rules of the road, and it is best to avoid them.

The reasons behind r-o-w rules is only to a small degree about maneuverability. It is really about safety and predictability. It is arbitrary to assign rights to the starboard sailor--but it makes things predictable. If you are on starboard and someone is approaching on a collision course you know that they a) don't see you; b) don't know the right of way rules, or c) know them but don't care. You can then make a course change to avoid them with greater knowledge. But you need to be aware that once you change your course, you lose your starboard rights, and are now responsible for avoiding a collision. Assigning rights to the starboard sailor avoids a dance where both sailors change course--but still onto a collision course. I have passed within a few feet of a sailor I trusted, on both tacks. But when I am the port sailor, I almost always announce a course change so they can see that I will pass behind them as close as is safe.

Downwind rights, at least in windsurfing races, has a lot to do with who has vision as well as maneuverability. Iso's concern about someone pinching up into your course raises limited concerns because a) both boats are on the same course, so the potential collision speed is the difference between boat speeds (or vectors), not the sum of the speeds, and b) the dirty air from the windward sailor limits the course options of the downwind sailor, at least until he is clear of the dirty air, which means he is clear. In any event, if the upwind sailor hits the downwind sailor he is at fault, particularly if he has changed his course.

If you are sailing with aggressive sailors who are more experienced and skilled than you, it is wise to avoid them, whatever the r-o-w circumstances are, just to avoid unpleasantness. Particularly those who will claim righteousness in support of their ignorance of the basic rules of safety.
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say run em down.
_________________
/w\
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Georges



Joined: 10 Apr 2000
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

windoggie wrote:
I say run em down.


And take there stuff Laughing that's the east bay way.
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