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Who is fighting all of these regulations?
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac,
I have to agree with Bard when it comes to my line of work. I've witnessed too many in the construction industry throw in the towel because they were tired of all the government hoops they had to jump through. It is killing of the small independents and raising the costs for the customers.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13265

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MANY doctors, too. 44% say they will not accept Obamacare.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4645

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR--I don't necessarily disagree with you. But this is where politics, and political discourse, gets complicated and requires homework. I can think of many different regulations that make no sense, and others that do, just in the arena of building. I have been a builder and I have been a regulator, and I have worked on reducing regulations. My instincts and values are to use economic incentives and disincentives in preference of regulation; that is inherently a more efficient system. With that said, elements of building regulations--zoning, structural codes, plumbing codes, and now energy efficiency codes, are with us to stay, and do more good than harm. The systems to change those regulations incrementally should be less sclerotic, and there can be shared values by most stakeholders on many issues of genuine reform.

But it takes understanding of the underlying problem that led to the regulation, the ability to communicate with the stakeholders who want that regulation, and a value set that seeks to accommodated different perspectives to achieve real reform. The regulations on antibiotics reflect that process, and the Obama administration is far better at it than the Bush administration. The appointees are smarter, less tied to industry, and better at communication.

It is here that the ignorance and scorched earth instincts of the Tea Party are counterproductive to their goal. The demonizing of other value systems shuts down communication. Rather than reach out to people, many on this forum described as "liberals", or by Iso as "libertards", who would be willing to work on changing or eliminating useless or inefficient regulations, they seek to mow down the good and the bad.

So if you want to be persuasive, be specific about what regulations you think need to be changed, and why--lest we have a generation of people with missing limbs because we failed to regulate things like thalidomide.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1887
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
MANY doctors, too. 44% say they will not accept Obamacare.


No, that's misstating the figure and what it represents. That % originated from a study distributed by the New York State Medical Society. It is Question 1. in the study.

44% of respondents indicated that they _presently_ do not participate in any health insurer Exchange.

As always, Mr. Fiction reads something and spits it out. Hey, why bother with the truth?

Here's the study with results: http://www.mssny.org/surveys/HealthExchange_10282013.pdf

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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2342

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:

I've witnessed too many in the construction industry throw in the towel because they were tired of all the government hoops they had to jump through. It is killing of the small independents and raising the costs for the customers.

The obvious next questions are... why are some small businesses still in business? What are they doing differently or right? Why are they not so troubled by regulations? What do they do right that the quitters couldn't bother doing?

It might be that those who "threw in the towel" were cutting corners and skirting the law and knew no other way to make money. Perhaps they had already been caught sidestepping building codes and fined or penalized. When pressured to follow codes and bylaws, they couldn't or wouldn't.

The building trades and society might be better off without them.

Maybe stiff regulations actually improve your reputation by flushing out those who should be flushed down.
.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that building codes and standards are not the issue at all. In fact, I wish they were more stringent and geared to better air quality and energy efficiency.

The issues I am referring to is that amount of red tape involved with dealing with government and how their measures only seem to be imposed on those who are ethical. The fly-by-nighters and cash guys fly under the radar.

I can site specifics if interested later and while not tapping away on my iPhone.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2342

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
I find that building codes and standards are not the issue at all. In fact, I wish they were more stringent and geared to better air quality and energy efficiency.

The issues I am referring to is that amount of red tape involved with dealing with government and how their measures only seem to be imposed on those who are ethical. The fly-by-nighters and cash guys fly under the radar.

I can site specifics if interested later and while not tapping away on my iPhone.

As I asked... why are some able to stick with it?
.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13265

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
isobars wrote:
MANY doctors, too. 44% say they will not accept Obamacare.


No, that's misstating the figure and what it represents. That % originated from a study distributed by the New York State Medical Society. It is Question 1. in the study.

44% of respondents indicated that they _presently_ do not participate in any health insurer Exchange.

As always, Mr. Fiction reads something and spits it out. Hey, why bother with the truth?

Here's the study with results: http://www.mssny.org/surveys/HealthExchange_10282013.pdf

And here's a discussion of the study *I* was talking about:
Doctors Don’t Like What They’ve Seen In ObamaCare

Posted 11/29/2013 07:07 PM ET

Health Care: Three years ago our IBD/TIPP Poll found that nearly half of doctors said they would consider quitting their practices if the Democrats' health care overhaul became law. So how do they like it now? Not much.

President Obama himself swore that once Americans saw what was in the Affordable Care Act they would like it — a broken promise much like his bogus assurance that "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan." Washington Post blogger Ezra Klein, at one time ObamaCare's chief apologist, made a similar statement in early 2010 when he wrote that "if you actually tell people what's in the health-care reform bill, then it becomes quite popular."

Those grand pronouncements are cousins to then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's bizarre 2010 claim that "We have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it," the implication being that the public would like what it sees.

Early on, Obama and Klein were right. The public did warm up to the Democrats' overhaul. In that same blog, Klein cited a Newsweek poll that found "the majority of Americans are opposed to President Obama's health-care reform plan — until they learn the details."

But that was almost four years ago. In late 2013, doctors are finding out what is in ObamaCare and they don't like what they see. Poll results released earlier this month by Jackson & Corker found that 61% of physicians said their opinion of the ACA "has changed for the worse." Only 31% said it had not.

The survey, which polled more than 3,000 doctors, also found that 80% of physicians say Americans currently insured will have to pay more under ObamaCare — remember the Obama promise of bending the cost curve downward? — while 76% see overall health care costs rising due to the ACA.

And what will America get in exchange for increasing costs? Quite likely, substandard results. Six in 10 doctors, the poll found, believe the quality of patient care will be hurt by ObamaCare, while 57% say the law will have negative impacts on treatment decisions.

Other highlights from the poll:

• More than seven in 10 doctors (73%) say patients will have less choice.

• Not quite half (44%) say they will not participate in the ObamaCare exchanges.

• More than half (56%) want the Affordable Care Act to either be repealed or defunded.

• Nearly two-thirds (66%) anticipate spending more time on administrative burdens.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-obama-care/112913-681110-physiciansand8217-opinion-of-obamacare-gets-worse.htm#ixzz2nIv998If


Sorry, but I don't do fiction.
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pointster



Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:


<snip >

Other highlights from the poll:

• oiMore than seven in 10 doctors (73%) say patients will have less chce.

• Not quite half (44%) say they will not participate in the ObamaCare exchanges.

• More than half (56%) want the Affordable Care Act to either be repealed or defunded.

• Nearly two-thirds (66%) anticipate spending more time on administrative burdens.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-obama-care/112913-681110-physiciansand8217-opinion-of-obamacare-gets-worse.htm#ixzz2nIv998If


Sorry, but I don't do fiction.


I looked up the referenced survey done by Jackson & Corker, a physican staffing service. It was not a scientifically-designed random sample of physicians. The sent out a mail survey (they don't say how many they sent, or how they they selected the population) and got 3072 replies. As they admit, the sample was self-selected.

The percentages they quote are percentages of respondents. Further, there was no independent confirmaion of doctors' actual knowledge of the ACA.

The editorial you quote is misleading in saying "More than seven in 10 doctors (73%) say patients will have less choice.", since the statistics cited were of the survey respondents, who were not a reliable sample of all us physicians. The same criticism applies to the rest of their bullet points.

You may not do fiction, but you did quote a misleading editorial based on a stastistically meaningless survey.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3013

PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traveling in Europe . One thing my friends here in business ask about is the regulatory environment in the US which makes it so easy to start and run a business.
This is a key part of the Land of Opportunity that America truly is.
In France, and you want to open a bakery?
you must prove a bakery is needed in that place. Already one there? No permit.
You must prove that you are a qualified baker, too.
And have a location with enough traffic, on and on.....
The permit process usually takes years, even for a simple business.
Most folks stay in one career for their lives because it so hard to change.
Americans are adverse to rules so we find even our lax environment oppressive
Operating under the radar is an American tradition clear back to the Revolution.
In the rest of the First World this is much harder to do.

As RR points out, unregulated competition has an advantage in overhead costs.
For many this becomes a factor when you grow too large to go unnoticed and have to toe the line more.
The change over to on the radar seems unbearable to many after the luxury of operating nearly reg free.
My real estate biz has no permits since I am not a realtor, I am the owner.
my windsurf biz needs no permits.
I am the only client in my construction biz. building or rehabbing homes for rent. No permit needed or even business license.
Consulting requires no permit in Hawaii.
Landlords need no permits in the areas I have homes.
Building race cars for SCCA drivers needs no permit either.
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