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Sail Making Materials and Dimension Polyant
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13866

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thombiz wrote:
they take a minor fall but instead of absorbing the fall, the sail lets loose in every direction, taking out 2-3-4 panels.


Wow! I can see why you're upset. I crash HARD into my sails every day -- hooked-in slams, often helmet-first (maneuvering hooked-in when rigged to plane in the lulls on a sinker risks that) -- and haven't damaged a sail in 20 years to the point I had to repair it. A dimple now and then, not worth fixing. My GoPro mount on my helmet put a 2" hole in the window of a new sail Wednesday for the first actual tear I can remember, but it's cosmetic; when it's convenient I'll put some clear tape over it. I had assumed most modern sails were comparable; if it weren't for my helmet and face guard's corners, I doubt body impacts could damage any sail I've owned since the 1980s. I can understand using ultralight materials in upper panels of a 10 meter sail, but not for ordinary sizes or down low.
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sailaero



Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Thombiz
Now you really pissed me off that is pretty hard to do. The part number for the material in question from Dimension Polyant is C 567. It was a 5 mil film 4 mil clear laminated to a white 1 mil. I just got of the phone with Hale Walcoff from Dimension Polyant. He can confirm my story as far as this material. His number is 860 928 8326. We have had Dimension Polyant produce other white films that have held up much better. Just because a film is white does not make it defective. The latter versions of that material have held up well.

I will except nothing less then a full apology and a retraction of your inaccurate statements. I hope in the future that you contact the manufacture in question before spreading inaccurate information.

Steve Gottlieb
Aerotech Sails
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will order some with my next order in about a week and will photo and document same in pics right here and I will also pursue pics of sails with said material used in the construction. Perhaps some of them will be much newer than 2003. We'll see.
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sailaero



Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Thombiz

It is not possible to order ten year old material. Looking at latter sails will not help your cause as we have ordered white grid in other production runs that was different from the 2003 material that had the problem.

Hale Walcoff from Dimensin Polyant is expecting your call. Get on the phone and call him. He will also explain the material in question that had the issues. The 1 mil white laminated to clear 4 mil had problems the latter materials did not.

I do not want to wait a week for you to correct your statements. Get on the phone now. Your stall tactic to save face is easy to see through. I will accept nothing less than a retraction of your incorrect statements and an apology.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13866

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sailaero wrote:
Hi Thombiz

I do not want to wait a week for you to correct your statements. Get on the phone now. Your stall tactic to save face is easy to see through. I will accept nothing less than a retraction of your incorrect statements and an apology.


Don't hold your breath, Steve. Thombiz admitted several weeks ago to posting things he does not believe to stir the pudding, so this could be just fun and games with him.

Mike \m/
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I called and talked to the people at Dimension Polyant in conjunction with placing an order. As for C567, Hale told me that it was as Steve described, a 5 mil product made of 4 mil clear with strings and a 1 mil white backing. Hale did not know the exact history of the material, but did say that it had not been produced at the Putnam plant while he has been there and he has been there 6 years. I then asked if there was a subsequent material with a very similar construction, clear with strings and a white backing. He didn't know of one off the top of his head, but he did go to the warehouse to try to find some. If he finds some, he will send me 2 yards of the material to use for repairs.

So, we're in agreement that there was a problem more than 6 years ago with C567 and that C567 has not been used for at least 6 years. For what it is worth, I've figured out why the C567 failed. It's the 1 mil white. Both sides of the sail receive the same UV exposure, the 4 mil holds up fairly well, but the 1 mil does not hold up nearly as well. Matter of fact one could expect that the 1 mil would only have 25% of the lifespan of the 4 mil, hence a short useful life. When the material starts to come apart, a failure is a failure. If Hale does find a similar in appearance material, and he sends me two yards, I will put the micrometer to it and put a test sample out in the yard to soak up UV and try to make sense of it. So all we have is a stalemate, no apology or retraction.

Update: I just got off the phone and DP in Putnam does not have anything with clear on one side, grey or black strings, and a white backing! The closest thing they have is a C665 which has white strings. I already have some C665 as part of my stock of 28 different flavors of x-scrim, and it is a clear with white strings on the front, white glue, and a clear panel on the back. My experience with C665 is it is a premium grade product often used by Goya and Simmer. I did purchase the roll they had just to make sure. [/b]

As for the "brand Name" sail, Hale told me that the "brand Name" company does purchase products to use in their sails but from the DP plant in Germany and he had no information or specific experience one way or the other with products from that plant. So, on this point, I will modify my endorcement of DP to only include those products produced in the Putnam factory in Connecticut.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13866

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Thombiz admitted several weeks ago to posting things he does not believe to stir the pudding, so this could be just fun and games with him.


That doesn't seem to be the case this time.
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sailaero



Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Thombiz

These are your words pasted from your earlier post.

If that stuff really is a Dimension Polyant product, provide the product number right here in public and I'll order some to prove it came from DP and publicly retract my support of Dimension Polyant and issue a public apology

You talked to Hale who told you they made the product. You were wrong. Either your a man of your word or your not. I guess everyone knows the answer now.
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another point. Hale did offer to contact the Germain plant and see if they had a similar material and if they did, have them ship it to Putnam and then to me. Seemed like way too much effort and expense. Note: without considerable effort, we could not confirm it came from the Germain DP plant. So let me go on record. If your sail has the forementioned material, clear with grey or black strings and a white backing, Do Not bring it to me to repair. I DO NOT have any matching material to use in the repair. As far as I know, the only source for that material is the manufacturer. You are best served by sending the sail back to the manufacturer for exact replacement of said materials in order to return it to it's original condition.

As for any of the other mentioned brands, Ezzy, Simmer, Goya, Sailworks, World Sails, etc. Bring a sail to me for repairs which only used the Putnam, Conn. plant materials and I'll take $5 off the repair, and provide the very best repair available.

My public apology: As mentioned by Steve Gottlieb, the C567 material used in Aerotech sails at least 6 years old was produced in the Putnam, Conn. plant of Dimension Polyant prior to the arrival of Hale Walcot. This plant produces materials to meet a manufacturer's very exact specified demands. According to Hale, this product has not been produced for at least 6 years, therefore, I apologize to Aerotech and specifically to Steve Gottlieb for suggesting or even insinuating this product is still being used in Aerotech sails. This product does not come from DP in Putnam, therefore, it is not a Putnam product being used and is not the C567 formerly used and confirmed as formerly use by Steve. I admit publicly that I have no idea where the materials currently being used in Aerotech sails come from, therefore I am not a confirmed reliable source of info on their sails.


Last edited by thombiz on Fri May 11, 2012 3:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NickB



Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 497
Location: Alameda, CA

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in other news, someone figured out the algorithm to this forum's malware!

Code:
isoloop:
i = luv(self)
for t in alltopics do
  if t.conflict.exist() && i not in t.conflict.partcipants[] then
    t.conflict.addParticipant(i)
    if i in t.repeatedlyIgnored[] then
      i.tryHarder(shame--)
      reply().self
    i += luv(self).more
  fi
  done
goto isoloop
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