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Sail Making Materials and Dimension Polyant
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3-phase



Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 481

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thombiz wrote:
I have owned a couple KA sails, but not for several years. The wave sail I had stretched out the clue within three hours of 28 mph wind flatwater blasting, the very first time I used the sail. The fabric at the clue developed pronounced wrinkles in the x-scrim.


Correct we had some Kult and Kaos where the clew ripped out in no time.
The early Koncept where super fast for speed but the durability was not there. Also trough is that DP had some x-play that delamed so even a top manufacturer has his problems. It's rather how they fix and deal with warranty's.

I deal wit KA since 8 years. Up to 2007, we used a major Hong Kong Factory all insiders know. Then we where so fed up with there crap that we started with a new sail lot. They had a learning curve too but with in 2 years the sails became a lot better and I say the sail we build now are world class stuff based on the performance and durability mix and we can back it up with good PWA rankings, slalom and wave as well speed and lately good formula rankings.

I would like to make one comment when you push the bounderies with products there is some stuff that falls apart because you are on the edge of physics and you have to do fix that, but in return who uses it can go really fast or do stuff others cant.

As long guys coming back to me for warranty with sail number and pictures most got the sail replaced or fixed in warranty.

Happy sailing

Jurg
www.winsurfdeal.com
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3-phase



Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 481

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thombiz wrote:
Jurg, you're such a likable and engaged dealer that I would love to see you become a Goya or perhaps Simmer dealer. It would be a marriage made in heaven! Great products and a great dealer...as good as it gets!



Wink I feel flattered. Thom, from my past (mechanical engineer and master in market) I helped many company / product lines that have fallen of the table to get the stuff together and back in to the game. I like Simmer as well Loft sails a lot since I sailed them often and of course, I am from Switzerland so they are like brothers to me ha-ha. I respect most brands that have there heart in the game for windsurfing not only the money.

Happy sailing

Jurg
www.windsurfdeal.com
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13834

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thombiz wrote:
Actually, I hate to bash Aerotech sails.


We can tell.

There are a few brands of gear out there I have little respect for due to their long history of substandard performance and/or durability. But I criticize them by name if and only if they meet these criteria and in this way:
Really substandard.
Frequent glaring problems, not occasional flukes.
The face behind the marque will not fix known problems.
I see a buyer making what I believe to be a big, potentially expensive mistake in ignorance, or
They directly request my advice.
I do it via PM. (I reserve the right to post it right here if a manufacturer behaves like an ass or is totally incompetent, but that's really rare.)

That doesn't mean your way is wrong -- it's a personal choice -- but as far as we know you've given a manufacturer no personal heads-up or chance to explain or correct what you perceive as a problem before blasting him in public. IOW, you're being more blunt than I am.

Think about that.
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sailaero



Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tombiz

I know very well the material you are talking about it was used in Aerotech sails in 2002 and 2003 and a few later trainer sails. This material was made by Dimension Polyant and has not been used for almost 10 years. I do agree with you that the material was less durable than current materials that is why we have not used it for a long time. We have been in the sail business since 1986 and have produced well over 20,000 sails. Some were not perfect and I would agree with you that the 2003 white material was not right. We have consistently been in the top 3 selling sails in the USA over the last 20 years and the only way to do that is with repeat customers. We are always striving to make our product better and constructive criticism is always welcome. It's great to come in contact with people who are all about making things better!
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thombiz,

I don't feel you were bashing Aerotech, mostlly bringing facts. But I felt reading your email that you are unfair to them by keeping the other company name with you.

What's more, it seems this material is sub-par quality wise. There is nothing wrong telling the community your opinion about this specific material and it's use in recent sails.
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As promised, I have pics:


For the record, I saw a variation of the white material 3 years ago on a new Rapid Fire one of the local sailors bought from the Sandy Point website. That material was NOT included in a new Rapid Fire purchased by a local sailor last summer. I was glad to see the upgrade because the Rapid Fire is a very good sail otherwise.

The left two materials are variations of the same materials that I often see which have unexplained catastrophic failures and/or premature non-impact failures. They come in various colors and string patterns but the end result is the same. Just look at the front and the back. If you can't see the strings equally well from both sides, you should avoid the sail and look elsewhere for the durability you seek.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 2373

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've seen folks that seem to go out of their way to trash their own stuff. sometimes, it's from either rigging tensions are way to much or not nearly enough. others, it's getting worked in the impact zone.

seen some aerotechs last 15 years of heavy use. as steve said, once a feature is recognized to be a problem, it is removed.

i use stuff at a very high frequency, especially that phantom 7.5 technora. it got pumped, washed, sailed, and sun baked for at least 200 sessions. still, it looks pretty good. that sail has more technora in it's construction than any other sail on the market. i've rigged it on rdm's and sdm's. it behaves like 2 sails in one: go fast, with the sdm, and soft pumper with the rdm.

there have been plenty of other flaws in windsurfing sails over the years from a variety of brands. wish no one had any. this is not a nice thread. are we becoming like the rec.windsurfing? will this forum become a wasteland like that soon?

_________________
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www.exocet-original.com
www.iwindsurf.com
http://www.epicgearusa.com/
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13834

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailboarder wrote:
I don't feel you were bashing Aerotech, mostlly bringing facts.


I agree. "Bashing" implies unfair and/or inaccurate criticism. But we can still give a manufacturer a chance to defend and/or correct his choices before publicly denouncing him or his product. (Maybe Thombiz did; we don't know.)
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1393

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thombiz - In the last few model years, KA's build quality has been nothing short of that of Simmer and Goya. I have never seen any of the problems you mentioned, but I only used their wave sails until last year and these were probably more heavily reinforced. I could use any sail I wish - I am not getting paid to represent a brand - but I prefer these sails and wish to support the people that make them.
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florian - ny22

http://www.windsurfing.kasail.com/
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To say that this is not a nice thread and this will lead to a windsurfing wasteland is pure Polyana (Pollyanna) BULLSHIT and you know better. Everybody knows you're an Aerotech team rider and not a single one of us questions your dedication to the brand. You should consider that the use of substandard materials may be one of the reasons for a decline in windsurfing in the US.

Consider this, there aren't that many windsurfing dealerships in the US so most buyers plan their purchases based on what they see and read in the magazines, websites, and visual media. They save up their money and finally purchase what they perceive to be a sail which will give them years of valuable service. Second, third, fourth time out, they take a minor fall but instead of absorbing the fall, the sail lets loose in every direction, taking out 2-3-4 panels. No problem, just take it to the sail repair guy or gal just down the street. Uh, wait a minute, there is no sail repair guy there in Springfield, Mo. Matter of fact, there's no sail repair guy or gal for 500 miles! The new sail has just turned to trash and another windsurfer just became a mountain biker all so someone can make an extra $12 on a sail. The windsurfing industry has been good to you and you have given a lot of yourself in support of it. This time, you may want to consider the needs of the user ahead of the manufacturer.

This thread is not about Aerotech. I've given enough hints, capatilized enough words, used enough model names that most people know the brand I'm referring to. Ice down the beer and take a little time to consider the big picture. I hate bashing Aerotech. One of the materials Aerotech used for years, pentex is one of the best materials I've ever seen. In 16 years of repairing windsurfing sails, I've never even once needed to replace even a single panel of pentex. Not one! But that white crap they are so fond of does a disservice to the sport. For years, I've quietly warned others of sails with that product in it, hoping Aerotech would receive enough buyer complaints to stop using it. If that stuff really is a Dimension Polyant product, provide the product number right here in public and I'll order some to prove it came from DP and publicly retract my support of Dimension Polyant and issue a public apology . Steve should remember I have pics of much newer models of Aerotech sails with that very same material and I can easily and publicly counter his claim that Aerotech stopped using the material back in 2003. Tread carefully my friend.

Some manufacturers have taken the General Motors approach to business. They cheapen it a little here, a little there, until they produce a product like my brother-in-law's Chevy pickup. It was in the shop 47 times in 2 years to correct warranty problems. He dumped the Chevy, bought a Toyota and never looked back. Then GM filed for bankrupcy. Some buyers will dump their problem sail brands and never look back. They will buy Ezzy, Sailworks, Simmer, Goya, Hot Sails, Northwave, and World Sails. I don't make a dime from my endorcement of these manufacturers, and making better and more durable sails will lead to less business for me so its not about the money.


Last edited by thombiz on Fri May 11, 2012 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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