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Is coverage for preexisting conditions welfare?
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Is coverage for preexisting conditions welfare? Reply with quote

From a prolific forum poster:
Quote:
- Coverage for a pre-existing condition is not insurance -- it's welfare. Insurance is for unexpected conditions.


An interesting quandary, indeed:

An individual who does develop a chronic disease and is forced to change insurers due to a job change, however, will continue to pay his/her share of the cost of treating everyone in the pool. Is this welfare?

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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2706

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Is coverage for preexisting conditions welfare? Reply with quote

feuser wrote:
From a prolific forum poster:
Quote:
- Coverage for a pre-existing condition is not insurance -- it's welfare. Insurance is for unexpected conditions.


An interesting quandary, indeed:

An individual who does develop a chronic disease and is forced to change insurers due to a job change, however, will continue to pay his/her share of the cost of treating everyone in the pool. Is this welfare?

Perhaps that prolific forum poster should consult with Mr. Fick, who has mastered the art of receiving on-going, never-ending government payment for some kind of "pre-existing condition" that was without doubt unexpected, is funded by our tax dollars, and presumably precludes him from physical activities (except for anything to do with the wind).

Is that welfare?

Or is it fraud?
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1960

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feuser wrote

Quote:
An interesting quandary, indeed:

An individual who does develop a chronic disease and is forced to change insurers due to a job change, however, will continue to pay his/her share of the cost of treating everyone in the pool. Is this welfare?


This is a much easier question to answer when you have run a small business for 20+ years. Those that have insurance provided by a large company or a governmental agency often are clueless about the perils faced by those that are forced to buy insurance on the open market without any of the protections afforded by the large purchasers.

In my case, my previous health insurer was no longer providing the type of policy I had after I "contributed" some $120,000 in premiums over the past 20 years. I was forced to shop for insurance on the open market in my early fifties. Fortunately, I have no pre-existing conditions, so I was able to get coverage. But, many are not so fortunate when they lose their jobs or move to another state or retire early.

You can contribute tens of thousands into the pool and be denied coverage. Only someone who has no experience dealing with the real world would consider that welfare. The ACA will provide safeguards from this.

If Romney will not address this head on in this campaign, he will not get my vote no matter what Obama does. This is the biggest single issue affecting my personal financial security and many others in my age group.
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NickB



Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 498
Location: Alameda, CA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Word. It affects the freedom of many, many families who otherwise might not move or switch jobs or start their own business because of a pre-existing medical condition locked them in. And that could be any of us, any time.

And no, your health is not a car, so no need for the lame analogies that have polluted this topic in the past.
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feuser



Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickB wrote:
Word. It affects the freedom of many, many families who otherwise might not move or switch jobs or start their own business because of a pre-existing medical condition locked them in. And that could be any of us, any time.

And no, your health is not a car, so no need for the lame analogies that have polluted this topic in the past.


I think the analogy seems obvious to some since they're both, well, expensive.

However, treating health care as a luxury good or consumable was precisely the attitude that created this crisis in the first place.

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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1960

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feuser wrote

Quote:
I think the analogy seems obvious to some since they're both, well, expensive.

However, treating health care as a luxury good or consumable was precisely the attitude that created this crisis in the first place.


Agreed. While I do believe that the consumer can, and should, have some responsibility and control in purchasing better value in health care, It is not a typical purchase.

How many of us are going to buy the "discount" chemotherapy treatment that is shown to be 75% as effective as the "luxury" brand. "It seemed like a good buy at the time" makes good head stone reading.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14322

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course mandated coverage for preexisting conditions (without offsetting higher premiums) is collectivism, welfare, socialism ... whatever label one wishes to apply to taking money by force of law from the majority and giving it to the minority for an event whose likelihood is 1.0. The whole concept of "insurance" is to spread the cost of events/losses that are UNCERTAIN (likelihood < 1.0) within the policy's term. Covering an expense -- medicine, surgery, death, automobile damage, a diagnosis, etc. -- that is certain or has already happened isn't insurance; it's as characterized above. Being able to buy your auto insurance after the wreck or your cancer insurance after the diagnosis is insane, and sure as heck isn't insurance.

The only place I can think of that this makes sense is as a part of one's compensation package in a voluntary setting. If Walmart wants to offer such a package to all or some employees as they begin working there, or if State Farm wants to offer such a policy commercially, it's a free country ... so far. But mandating it is not only welfare but increases its cost by adding administrative costs to the surgery or medicine or auto repair shop.

That Coboardhead favors it as a fiscal necessity for him doesn't make it any less socialist; it just means he favors government mandates which violate the Constitution because the alternative will cost him money. If that isn't greed, I don't know what is. He's a one-percenter, yet still thinks it's fair that ordinary working stiffs owe him money he has not earned.

GOD but that frosts my ass! "IWANNIT!" does not automatically mean it's not welfare.

And anyone without the brainpower to distinguish that issue from a pension or health care insurance partly subsidized by taxpayers for fire/police/military veterans as part of their compensation for risking their lives to protect the rest of us has a preexisting mental condition.


Last edited by isobars on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14322

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
How many of us are going to buy the "discount" chemotherapy treatment that is shown to be 75% as effective as the "luxury" brand. "It seemed like a good buy at the time" makes good head stone reading.

I can tell you right now as a cancer survivor with one of my two unrelated cancers coming back that I'd feel guilty as hell asking my insurance providers -- i.e., everyone else covered by my providers -- to pay $95,000 for a Provenge treatment to add its nominal four months to my life. I can't swear I won't change my mind when the time comes, but for now that decision is made.


Last edited by isobars on Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5366

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is ample evidence that Mike Fick is permanently disabled with mental illness.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1961
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Of course mandated coverage for preexisting conditions (without offsetting higher premiums) is collectivism, welfare, socialism ... whatever label one wishes to apply to taking money by force of law from the majority and giving it to the minority for an event whose likelihood is 1.0. The whole concept of "insurance" is to spread the cost of events/losses that are UNCERTAIN (likelihood < 1.0) within the policy's term. Covering an expense -- medicine, surgery, death, automobile damage, a diagnosis, etc. -- that is certain or has already happened isn't insurance; it's as characterized above. SNIP


BZZZT. Many insurance policies cover preexisting conditions. Which ones? How about your collision coverage on your automobile? Or your homeowners policy? For example, claims for damage to a body panel will be met with either a flat denial for cause or a new panel. No discount is made because the panel was scratched before the incident.

Most homeowner's insurance is an agreed-value policy. You mutually decide on the policy value usually based on the purchase price. An inspector visits to confirm dimensions and general condition. If the house suffers damage by fire, for example, everything will be made with new or as new up to the policy limit but without regard to whether the wall paper was hung in 1964 or the wall was cracked.

Isobars either lies about facts (something he vigorously debates), makes them up without a second thought or simply has no idea how anything works other than a Northwave and a failed missile defense program. He's like my uncle, who had no idea the US was exporting oil or that production was higher than at any time during Obama's predecessor's two terms. Ignorance is fine, if that's his excuse. So is being wrong. What makes him a joke is that he continues to take positions about which he knows little or nothing and refuses to acknowledge his errors.

Unless he "peeks" around his magic, front-end, plonking machine he cannot possible learn from these interactions and willfully stays ignorant. Maybe he really belongs back in the desert with the rest of the ostriches?

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