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Auto bailouts
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4648

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan--that's the right question. What is the benefit-cost picture? What would unemployment have cost? How much benefit was there from secondary spending with auto workers that stayed employed? We used to have a press that would ask and try to answer these questions. Right now we have two parties that spin their own version of the answer without a serious discussion.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1847

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong. I thought the bailout of GM was necessary esp. considering the big picture as part of a stimulus package for a decimated economy.

That said...A lot of patting each other on the back over GM's profit. Little to no appreciation of the losses incurred by the bondholders and shareholders. They should have been at the table.

The overall stimulus package, including payroll tax holiday, made up for my GM losses, and investor beware and all that. But, I still believe this success story requires an honest accounting.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5435

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the big picture associated with the auto bailout, we can't readily expect an avalanche of returns in the short term. As I've found in results in my managed fund investments in 2011, I had a negative return for the year. No doubt, a real bummer. But sometimes we have to persevere over time for positive results. Often folks expect more than what's realistic. Patience is the key.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13270

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
The overall stimulus package, including payroll tax holiday, made up for my GM losses ...

Yes ... at the expense of all taxpayers.

coboardhead wrote:
But, I still believe this success story requires an honest accounting.

As it is, every day, on FBN, Bloomberg, Barron's, IBD, etc.
GM is boasting of its 10% profit expectations, while owing billions to taxpayers and pensionholders and while everyone wants to hang Big Oil for making 8%.

BTW, watch Ford. The same sources who predicted the housing and stock crashes in great detail years before they happened still say Ford is on very shaky ground.
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rigitrite



Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 207
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our auto makers have a difficult time competing with other countries, because they have to pay for healthcare for all their workers, plus retirement, etc.... Toyota, Honda, Daimler, VW they don't pay dime one for their workers; the government does.
So when will conservatards get over their cognitive dissonance and relieve big and small business of this onerous burden???? We need a single payer system for heathcare if we wanna compete.

As for bailouts? It would appear thet they've worked, since we're not in a 2nd Great Depression, but you have to be richer than God to get bailouts, because that's how it works. Cutthroat capitalism is only risky for the little guy. The fat cats can risk all they want and never suffer.
[/i]

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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 3328
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good points rigitrite! Also add that American cars are terrible. Toyota has the camry and the Prius, Honda tha Accord, Audi the A-4, what the hell do we have ? The Silverado?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13270

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rigitrite wrote:
We need a single payer system for heathcare if we wanna compete.

As for bailouts? It would appear thet they've worked, since we're not in a 2nd Great Depression, but you have to be richer than God to get bailouts, because that's how it works. Cutthroat capitalism is only risky for the little guy. The fat cats can risk all they want and never suffer.
[/i]

What? Do you have any idea how poorly socialized medicine (taxpayer-funded, government-run, by definition) has failed in the diverse nations of the world?

Barack's CLAIM that he saved us from some hypothetical second great depression is about as valid as my claim that I saved the world from the global freezing the loons (the same loons who decided the threat is warming just 20 years later) swore in the 1970s was on our doorstep.

What? Bailouts are given to any individual or entity expected to vote Democrat or donate to the Democrat party. Banks, unions, mortgage holders by the hundreds of thousands in every income group -- probably millions -- are getting rewarded for their failures every day for some simple, nation-destroying purposes: to buy votes from individuals, to make corporations beholden to the government, and to garner hundreds of millions of dollars in donations. Thousands of them have received formal, specific Presidential exemptions from Obamacare in return for donations.

Fat cats never suffer? What?
They pay >90% of all federal income taxes when they first earn their money.
They will soon be paying 30-some percent on any profits they make by funding businesses (aka capital gains) at great fiscal risk ... unless, of course, they're too smart to risk their money investing in corporations and find better ways to invest it and let those corporations just wither and die.
Individual fat cats will be taxed AGAIN on that already-taxed money when they die and bequeath THEIR OWN ALREADY-TAXED PROPERTY INCLUDING MONEY to whomever they wish.
The Democrats proposed under Clinton to steal at gunpoint 15% of all PRIVATE wealth. Anyone who thinks that idea is off the the Obamatable is dreaming.
Hillary vowed quite forcefully to take the profits from big corporations.
Obama's latest new U.S. corporate income taxes on corporations earning profits overseas and bringing it back to help the U.S. economy will stifle the corps dumb enough to do THAT again. (You have to read down several paragraphs to find THAT tidbit in the left wing press releases boasting about Obama's slight decrease in some of their other taxes.)
I'll spare you the next 20 bullets.
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rigitrite



Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 207
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, single payer medicine works. I've experienced it first hand. You're simply parroting talk radio....you can stop now.
This figure about % of taxes paid is COMPLETELY bs, and you know it. It might be a fact but it's meaningless.
Percentage of INCOME is the only meaningful metric. Why should Rupert Murdoc only pay 17% of his income in taxes (or no taxes at all), but I have to pay 32%???? I could give a rip about your BS percent of all taxes paid; they don't get a pass. If they pay 90% of all taxes, then they SHOULD be paying 99.99%.
Your argument assumes that the people getting bailouts are like you and I, but they're not. The rich live in a completely separate tax universe.
My neighbor cannot get a bailout on his $155,000 house that's being forclosed on, but his banks owner can easily get $700,000,000 of our tax money to cover his dip-$hit business ideas that didn't work out. Let's hear your rational for that?
As far as your idiot screed against the estate tax: if you're against the estate tax, you are in favor of a permenant aristocracy in this country. Plus you don't understand the estate tax...and you don't know anyone who's paid it, since it kicks in at like $2.5 million and ONLY applies to an INCREASE in wealth.
Get your facts right and spare us from ALL your bullets.

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5435

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Get your facts right and spare us from ALL your bullets."



I'll second that statement!


" The Democrats proposed under Clinton to steal at gunpoint 15% of all PRIVATE wealth. Anyone who thinks that idea is off the the Obamatable is dreaming.



You know isobars, I read that pointed opinion piece on the above topic that you posted earlier. It was contrived nonsense, just like what you said above, but at least it showed some thought.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2344

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
...the same loons who...

Has Bill O invaded IWS?
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