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That green thing
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5472

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having worked on clean water, clean air, and access to the beaches for over 30 years, I can say that protecting the environment adds economic value. In California, tourism is a huge economic sector, and it depends on getting to the beaches and the fact that San Francisco Bay is preserved.

Matty--I thought the only green thing you liked was Harp lager on St. Patty's day!
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1518

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think even the staunchest conservatives believe that some government regulations are essential to secure our future.

As we have seen over the history of civilization, over regulation and government control can and does get out of hand. Some of us just want to be sure that we keep a balance between regulation and freedom, so the issue is where the fulcrum should be located.

I think that most of us would and can live our lives without "big brother" making too many decisions for us, but for those that are too selfish to see the big picture, "big brother" should be there to give some "guidance".
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2740

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
I think even the staunchest conservatives believe that some government regulations are essential to secure our future.

As we have seen over the history of civilization, over regulation and government control can and does get out of hand. Some of us just want to be sure that we keep a balance between regulation and freedom, so the issue is where the fulcrum should be located.

I think that most of us would and can live our lives without "big brother" making too many decisions for us, but for those that are too selfish to see the big picture, "big brother" should be there to give some "guidance".

I think that the big picture looks quite different to different people. So, your impression of what's in the big picture might be completely at odds with another's impression of the big picture.

If you were a homeowner on the Cuyahoga River 40 years ago, then your big picture might include a clean river and clean air.

If you were the manager of a manufacturing plant on the shores of the Cuyahoga, then your big picture might include a place to discharge your toxic waste at no financial cost to you or the business owners.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 1088

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac, Blue Moon, with a slice of orange, is my beer of choice these days. And I am Irish, but never a big fan of St Patricks day.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 2034

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matty...Don't they ship Blue Moon out from Colorado and Oranges from Florida? I hope you at least drink the 22 oz. to save some on glass bottles.

Not preaching...just saying.

I have only met a few folks that totally walk the walk in environmentalism. (I'm not one...I windsurf and kite all over the place).

Fact is...while I am convinced global warming is real and man caused...I draw the line at it interupting my skiing and windsurf habits. I would guess I am not alone here.

How many of us jump on a plane to visit grandkids several times a year or take that trip to Europe? Gotta love that fresh Alaskan Salmon...they don't actually swim to the supermarkets. How about that great Pete's coffee? Ever tasted Colorado wine?...ship me some from CA.

The richer our society gets, the more we will consume. This cannot go on forever...

Now...time for a plug from our chicken rep. Wink
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3525

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brother was a Lumberjack for a year for chance to work in the great outdoors and trash it.
Next year he switched to tree planting and planted 100 to one trees he had cut and then quit.
We can drive our big van to go sail and plant trees on the next windless week end.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5472

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno--I'm at the stage of my career where I look at reducing regulations. But we need sane conservatives to do that. Sane conservatives that know something about the underlying laws and have ideas about better ways to approach regulations.

It is absolutely true that no bureaucrat can create regulations except to implement laws enacted by Congress. Those of us who make decisions implementing such laws as the Clean Water Act, passed in 1972 while Nixon was president, know that only the authority granted in that law can be used to regulate activities by business and individuals. Same with the Clean Air Act, toxic Substances Act, and Endangered Species Act.

Smart businesses have national organizations with staff and attorney's that comment on proposed rules, and in the application of those rules. Those comments are always taken seriously and are most effective if they suggest more efficient ways to accomplish the underlying legislative goals.

The current hyper-partisanship has created a stalemate that has prevented any change to the Clean Air Act or the Endangered Species Act that might make them more effective and less onerous. It was the first George Bush that agreed to a cap and trade strategy for acid rain, supported by some of the environmental community, that proved more effective and efficient. Some groups including business and environmental groups have suggested approaches for preserving habitat that don't focus on each tiny bit of habitat for an endangered species, but instead focus on preserving and enhancing a sustainable habitat. But the capture of the entire Republican Party by the oil and coal industries makes any meeting in the middle impossible.

Instead we have attacks on environmental laws by newcomers to politics that don't understand the underlying legislation, don't have the power to re-write them, and don't care. Some here have said that putting amateurs in government is a good idea. Even if they aren't crazy, government is a tricky business and simply ignoring the laws doesn't work. The courts eventually overruled the Bush administration when they ignored the law--I know, I was party to at least one successful lawsuit.

Those paying attention know that the hysteria over "overregulation" began when 1) EPA proposed regulations to control carbon dioxide after environmentalists won a Supreme Court case that decided carbon dioxide was an air pollutant that must be regulated under the Clean Air Act; 2) cap and trade legislation, patterned on the successful efforts of the first Bush administration on acid rain; 3) EPA proposed to regulate mercury in coal burning after the second Bush admininstration did nothing to protect human health--and lost many court cases, and 4) Congress passed legislation, without a single Republican vote, to re-regulate some areas of the banking industry that caused the economic meltdown. Tea Party House members, backed by money from the Koch Brothers and Delay went hysterical. Which of these regulations do you think is not needed, and why?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5967

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many folks in America like techno900, Bard and isobars that view our government as an unwanted influence that interferes unnecessarily and willfully in our lives. How do you reason with folks that see our government negatively as "big brother" or "the guv'mint"?

Today, so many from the Republican right are so adamant and vocal about removing regulations and getting government out of our lives. It's all voiced in broad generalities without any real specifics. House Speaker Boehner is known to do this frequently. While he doesn't really get into any specifics when he does it, I think we all realize that there are many lobbyists, organizations and corporations out there that are pushing relentlessly to strip away important regulations to service their goals. Predictably, they are important financial contributors trying get want they want at any cost, and unfortunately characters like Boehner are only too willing to accommodate them. It's a pretty sad state of affairs that, in my view, makes it increasingly difficult improve our environment, and to provide the needed oversight over our business and financial systems.

Can we expect more transparency? Well, no. The way I see it, Republicans are trying to fan people's hate of our government and convince them that government is the problem. If they can do this successfully and get more Republicans elected, then they can steamroll their real agenda without any resistance. Repeal healthcare reform, privatize Social Security and Medicare, lift prudent restrictions and regulations on oil drilling, kill the EPA and effectively rape the environment with abandon. On the flip side of the coin they'll strive to institute their social agenda, to include the repeal of Roe vs. Wade. And that's only their short list.

You know, I could never be a Republican. Their goals and visions are vastly different from mine.
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jhershey



Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: This is inaccurate. Reply with quote

Just to be to the point, instead of being a butt and ranting, this is inaccurate to the point that it can be asked: Who do you think created the ideas, inventions, and consumption to begin with?
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stevenbard



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 4310

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't remember the government intervening when I left the milk bottles out in the early 60's. I don't mind the govt stomping on GE or Big Oil if they screw up. I just don't like being told what kind of light bulb to buy.

We used to just turn out the lights when we left the room.

The EPA is way out of control today. As a matter of fact the average American commits multiple felonies EACH DAY, according to some studies. IE, batteries in the trash, not recycling, changing oil in the driveway. And most of these are in the inner city, not the rich parts of town.
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